The Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) was intended to staunch the bleeding of America’s small businesses. But in disbursing PPP loans, the SBA relied on the biggest banks to get money into the hands of their existing customers. The result was that big businesses received more than half of the funds, while many small businesses were left out. This problem was compounded for low-income communities and communities of color.

By overlooking non-traditional financiers—like CDFIs, minority depository institutions and others—government relief efforts missed a huge opportunity to reach the small businesses most in need. Fortunately, the flawed rollout of the PPP put non-traditional lenders in the spotlight and made people get creative.

This session will cover why PPP was flawed, attempts to make it more accessible and what kinds of partnerships and innovative programs were created to help fill the capital void for the small businesses struggling the most. A number of new models have arisen that may continue to be used long-term to provide small business owners, particularly those that are unbanked or underserved by traditional financial institutions, with capital to survive and grow. This panel brings together thought leaders in these various sectors to talk about these new partnerships and models and how they may create opportunities for a more equitable lending landscape in the future.

For filmmaker James Rutenbeck, a project to document students who had experienced homelessness, incarceration or faced barriers to a college education as they engaged in a rigorous night course in the humanities started a journey to partner with those students in an attempt to explain the divide between White and Black, rich and poor. What does it look like for Boston residents impacted by structural racism to take back their stories, their lives and their city?

Speakers:

• James Rutenbeck, Filmmaker, A Reckoning in Boston
• Kafi Dixon, Farmer in the Northeast & Founder/The Common Good Cooperative, Cooperative for Women and Greater Boston
• Juan Leyton, director of organizing, NCRC

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Leyton 0:05

Welcome to the Just Economy Conference 2021 with the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. Happy to have you all here. This workshop recording in Boston. Such a nice documentary that you all want to see if you haven’t seen it highly recommended. So I have with me today James Rutenbeck and Kafi Dixon. So welcome to the Just Economy Conference. Happy to have you here today. 

Rutenbeck 0:41

Thank you Juan.

Dixon 0:42

Thank you Juan. Thank you for having us.

Leyton 0:46

Yeah, so we’re going to have I have a couple of I mean, more than a couple of questions. We’re gonna say this about how our dialogue conversation today. And, and, and I wanted to sort of like, I wanted to start by asking each of you if you can tell us more about yourself. And yet who I mean, tell us more about yourself so people can get to know you a little bit more. Sure.

Rutenbeck 1:15

Kafi Do you want to start? No. Okay, I’m, I’m from small, working class farm town in eastern Iowa. where I grew up, I went to college in the Midwest. And then after college, I worked in rural, rural West Virginia on a teacher corps project. And because I thought that I wanted to work with young kids as a teacher, but then I realized I was temperamentally unsuited to that work. And I always loved film and theater. And I just decided to go for it. So I moved to the east coast, I worked in New York for a small educational film company. I moved to Boston because I had heard that there was a long standing tradition of nonfiction filmmaking here, and I wanted to be part of that. And so I was a waiter for many years while I worked on film projects, mostly for no salary. and got to know people in the community went to grad school here, and I’ve stayed on and so I’ve been working as a director and editor for since the early 1980s. When I finished grad school. And I’ve worked on films that are, I worked for a company in Boston called vital pictures that did a series called unnatural causes, which was about health disparities. The subtitle is, is inequality making us sick? And I’ve worked on some other films about race and social justice issues. And but a recognition in Boston is a film that unexpectedly sort of took me to a new involvement with social justice issues.

Leyton 3:04

Kafi do you want to tell us about yourself?

Dixon 3:06

sure. My name is Kafi Dixon. I am a native northeast gender. I’m also a native Bostonian. We can trace our lineage back in New England and in Boston, at least six generations. I’m also a business owner. And well before I even knew what the concept was or the statement of social impact, at the age of 19, I opened up my first business which was a social impact business now that I know where I was helping women access furniture bedding specifically. After there was a rash of neglect reports opened up against single mothers low income single mothers, for things as simple as not having adequate bedding the children sleeping in the same beds and not having bunk beds so on and so forth. I’ve had many businesses throughout my life so I’m I’ve sold some I’ve moved on from and just decided to at this point in my life that with the background in farming and agriculture, I had an interest in going into rural farming. And the famous story is that in my transition to Vermont, right, or to the mountains of the Berkshires, here in Massachusetts, that I realized that I had a privilege and my ability to be able to transition to rural land. But even though I didn’t have an education to speak of, and, you know, I had challenges in my life a lot around race, class and gender, that being able to have a dream of transitioning from what I consider to violent space to a peaceful space was a privilege within itself. Before transitioning out of the city of Boston, I decided to see if I could assist some of the women that I considered my friends who were in the communities in the urban communities living in poverty, suffering from lower resources challenge, again, by issues of class power and privilege. And to see if I could bring some of my understanding of cooperative knowledge was in cooperative works, and intersect it with food systems work, to provide them ways to come together as a community center and be healthy. From that, intention, common good cooperatives was born. Common Good, cooperative, quiet, as kept, has 900 members sitting on a meetup. We have about 60 members who have registered through our new website. And we’re running a crowdfunding campaign through AI fund woman where we’ve had at least 35 members come on and crowdsource the sustainability of the co op. The future of the co op is to be a zero waste Co Op, in an urban environment, where we talk about community health, wellness and Neighborhood Development, specifically from the voices of the people who embody the community who have been here, Jen generationally, with the focus on reciprocity and reconciliation in the community. And that reciprocity and reconciliation is the generational ties to Dorchester, Roxbury, mattapan, as people of color, and with an acknowledgement that they’ve been deployed, displaced and moved out, and hoping that our organization could act as a gap stop in a way to provide them Foundation, some sustainability, some way to push back against systems that are going on now in the city and country, which are creating challenges to the basic existence of black families here in the city. Thank you.

Leyton 7:08

Thank you. So I want to give back to the corporate the question that you’re talking about, because I am very passionate or cooperative. So I’ll come back to that. But I wanted to ask Steve, I mean, what motivated you to sit on, like, make this documentary? I mean, what is sort of your personal motivation to be to have done this? Yeah, well, I,

Rutenbeck 7:28

I had been to I make, I’ve made other documentaries over the years that are mostly like passion projects, I guess, the films that are generally underfunded, but they’re about things I care about. And oftentimes, these films are longitudinal. And they take time to make because part of the filmmaking is documenting people’s lives as they’re changing over time. So sort of finding people who are really interesting and watching their lives unfold. And in this case, it took five years to make this film. And it started I guess, when I went to benefit dinner for mass humanities, which has a program called the Clemente course in the humanities, which is a tuition free night course, in the humanities, art, literature, philosophy and history for people who never had the opportunity to go to college for one reason or another. And there are 34 sites across the US have Clemente courses. And I heard a graduate speak at this dinner and was really impressed by this woman and she, she was able to take the six credits that she got from Bard College, which everyone who completes the course will get and sort of launched yourself into an undergraduate career and was able to had a really inspiring story about graduating from college and becoming, you know, pursuing work that was meaningful to her and sort of releasing this potential that she always had in her but was never allowed to find fruition and so I thought that seemed like a really, you know, I was thinking like within each of the classrooms like in Dorchester, the Dorchester site in mess, there’s several sites in Massachusetts, but there’s one in Dorchester, where Kafi studied. You know, within this one class of 22 people, I, I assume, oh my god, there must be like, such amazing stories from the people in the classroom. And so I had just enough money in 2014. to, to know that we could film The classes over the course of a year, not all the classes, but like eight classes with multi cameras in a black box space at the cabin score health center. And that I trusted that from there. You know, we could do more filming over time, but I didn’t really expect, I thought that we would film a little bit outside the classroom with some of the some of the people and some of the students. And that was where things got more complicated as I got closer to two other students Kafi, and Carl Chandler, who were both, you know, really outstanding students in the course. But as I got to, as I spent more time with them, and saw the obstacles in their lives as people of color in Boston, in a city that was changing dramatically and booming, in many ways, but not for people on the lower tiers of Boston, you know, the city, the film, the film changed pretty dramatically. And so it was a film, starting out as a film about transformation through experience, engagement with art and literature and philosophy, which it still is, in some ways, but there’s a there’s another piece to the film now and another narrative that explores systemic racism, and primarily through through Kafi and Carl’s stories.

Leyton 11:17

And I have to say that I was very impressed by some of the reflections and conversations that the students like Daffy had like going through those like, those philosophical conversations. So I was like, I was very impressed by that. I’m gonna I’m gonna get back to you in a minute. But I wanted to sort of have a follow up with James because also, I saw that, as you were telling the story, stories, or the students and the city of Boston, also this house, this film also was sort of impacting you personally. You can say more about that, because it seemed to me that you didn’t know you were going to your own personal sort of like deflection transformation to this process. You can say more of that

Rutenbeck 12:05

right well, what happened was, I started to recognize that I didn’t really understand everything that was going on, especially in Kafi slife. And as someone who was aspiring to do something that seemed very noble to me, and something that I think anyone in a conservative or progressive person would say, is admirable, like organizing in your neighborhood, raising food for your neighbors, doing it in a cooperative way. It seemed to me like wow, this, this is the kind of thing that everybody talks about. You know, this is what this is sort of an ideal situation. But there were so many obstacles that Kafi was facing along the way. And Carlos, well, like both of them were faced with the eviction Kafi was evicted during the course of the film. I started seeing other meeting other people from the course, who had housing insecurity, issues, food insecurity issues. I learned some of the members of the Clemente course some of the students had been bussed to South Boston and Charlestown in the 70s 1974. And I just started to see that, like, I’m in, I realized I was in over my head in terms of my understanding of the stories and that I started to see that I was arrogant to even think that I could mediate these stories, because I just didn’t have the wherewithal to do it or the life experience. And so I enlisted Kafi and Carl as producers to work with me in a collaborative way to help me try to tell the story and make sense of it. And then what happened was, we met with an executive from PBS from independent from Independent Lens, the PBS series who was interested in the film but felt that you know, I had sort of dipped my toe into being a widow more than a witness like someone who was actually a minor character in the film who was sort of commenting on what I had seen. And this executive said, James, unless you really bring yourself into the film in a deeper way, the way coffee and carbohydrates, this film is just going to be like every other film of its kind. And so Kafi basically became executive producer and started organizing these sessions where I would meet with her and Carl, and tolga shields, who’s in the film, and Kafi’s, friend Fernando, who teaches at Tufts Medical School, we would meet at his office in Charlestown and look at, basically, the challenge was for me to bring my voice into the film. And to be a witness, and part to be more than a witness like to enter in and sort of be transparent about my difficulty and my missteps in making trying to make this film and being guided and supported by people of color. Who were who valued my voice, and whose were saying to me, James, you know, when you went to a housing court with Kafi, and you saw how chaotic it was, and you saw all these families that were there who were facing eviction, with no legal support, you know, and how did that make you feel? You know, and how did it make you feel when you when Kafi was evicted, and when you went to the housing office with Kafi, and so there was a group of people around me supporting me to bring my voice and not to become a character in the film, but to tell that help give a sharper relief to Kafi and Carl’s stories. And also just to be more transparent about how the film was being made, and who was making the film. And I sort of, you know, I think what happened was, I became friends with Kafi and Carl. And when bad things happened to your friends, you tried to support them, right. And so I couldn’t just be an observer anymore, I had to, like, enter into the film, in a more overt way, and stick up for these people that I’d come to know and care for. And I think that was, that was when the film really changed. The film had been sort of floundering, like it wasn’t coming together as a film. Before that, and I think it bringing my voice in allowed me to do a lot of basic film, film things too, like storytelling and things that broke, we were able to sort of just drop knology and be a little freer about how we told the story. And I was able to bring, say things in a very concise way that would propel the story forward like details that, you know, could have taken a long time to unfold in a long scene or something, I could just sort of expedite some of the storytelling too. So it just ended up working really well. And Nolan Walker, who was the executive from ITVS. We sent him the film after we worked on it together. And he really liked it and wanted me to do some more work. And I worked closely with him. And then PBS Independent Lens, picked up the film license the film for broadcast, so it will be on independent lands next year. 

Leyton 17:54

Hey, Kafi, I was thinking, what he was striking for me to see you sort of like somebody who was very resilient, that would never would give up for Western like way to sort of fight back no matter what. And so when I was, I wasn’t asked to sort of call it How does it feel to be a corporate lucid and being in the field for these five years? As a one question and then two, I wanted to ask you more about your own involvement in organizing also in Boston. So you can first sort of like, share my feelings about being the film for like five years and how do you feel

Dixon 18:37

The you know, opening up we talk about vulnerability a lot in terms of making this documentary we talk about, you know, on a basic level, the vulnerability of myself Carlin Jane’s, but on a higher level, you’re talking about the vulnerability the shared vulnerability of a white man, right? The shared vulnerability of a black woman right, and the shared vulnerability of an interracial man of color with a background And indigenous and Native American community. And a lot of people ask me what brought me to that point of vulnerability, what brought me to the point of committing to being vulnerable, and in the documentary to participating it, to opening up my world to Jane’s to open in my world to Carl, and to open up my world to what I had always seen as a violent space for so many lower class lower resource the women here in the city of Boston, but you know, to opening up my world to be critiqued by so many, right here in the city, who maybe did not resonate with my experiences. Or were in disbelief of the experiences of so many women and men here in the city of Boston around displacement. But I began to realize really, what was a violent space was the cooperative development. What was the violent space was? First, you know, asking for autonomy in the voice of black women and our experiences, and then advocacy for that, right? And then what is it to be seen as a disgruntled, angry black woman, as I demand, you know, to hear our experiences and to hear our suffering. In these spaces and places that were that we were being told, we’re no longer for us. I didn’t think I would survive the process of talking about this work with common good cooperatives or advocating for these women who were marginalized, and very unseen, who are always just names or data or research was statistics in a university or in organizations, but had an actual lives not just within themselves, but within those spaces where they people were supposed to be advocating for them. So um, I said, if you want to know my world, James, because people need to know our world, then yes. And then supporting James, for what he was witnessing, realizing that he was witnessing violence, what was commonplace to us. I was witnessing it taking a toll on Jane’s, and I was witnessing him wrestling with the experiences of ours, difficult subjects that most people prefer not to even approach. He’s standing there by me in Delhi station and the welfare office and the homelessness unit. Not because I was here for myself, but in watching what happens to women and men as maybe get into calves and become their own domestic migrants. So the other side of Massachusetts, two communities that are not their home, you know, just to stabilize themselves. I’m witnessing him wrestling about why he’s at the housing court with me, or why he’s at the section eight office, what his power meant and advocacy for me in those spaces. And why did I feel that he could be that he was important in those spaces, wrestling, what it meant to be a white man of power in those spaces, and for him to provide transparency to the very real issues that black women have that women have in the city, right? So I want it to be gentle and create a space for him those same space I would ask for myself for the woman a space where we could be heard and decompress and feel supported. And Dr. Fernando owner from Tufts came through and in reciprocity and realizing and I guess chains and and self realization of meeting how telling not even help wanting us to be able to have voice in the story.

The power of telling somebody to have voice and their own story provided to Carl and I an opportunity to be producers.

Leyton 23:56

Because they told you this question came up now as you’re talking that alone final presentation we said James, just totally out of place here. What are you talking about? Everything worked out fine. wasn’t like how did this I mean what tensions conflict coding these sort of relationship? Yeah, I mean, because it’s five years, five years is a long time. So let’s understand one place and the study shows that understand the issues.

Dixon 24:26

Yeah. Can I go ahead? There may have been people circling, circling and orbiting me who did not understand who weren’t clear on what James was doing, or what I was doing with James. The Odd Couple, right? In our friendship. Yes, I can see how people believe that in working across race and class, there are conflicts, I can also see how people perceive that those conflicts, specifically lie with women of color, and their ability to integrate into the understanding of other people’s culture, right, while they advocating for themselves or that their experiences again, or the community. But the thing that made James different than a lot of people is that a lot of people that black woman would push back on right, the concept of hero, right, James did not come in, he came in behind a camera and shied away from making himself the the lead in the stories of our lives. It just so happened that his story was integral to Rs and intersected Rs, and very, a very powerful way. But there were very few conflicts in five years to be had between James and I. Because he came in to listen. And till he came into witness, he did not come in, in judgment or critique. He came in understanding that we had a story to be told, and he wanted to know what that story was. And even more awesome, he could have just told the story, documented it and then left. Right and invited Carl and I to watch the documentary of our lives, watch the development around our lives, he could have been on these panels solely. But in the true form of altruism, I think I’m pronouncing that right. And the true form of giving right and a true form of community and friendship. He took what power that he would have had as a director with such a powerful film, and seated that power into Carl and I. And then understanding that again, we had the ability to capacity and competency, to speak to our experiences, and to speak to an audience so that they fully understand what they were witnessing in the documentary and made it equitable. Let’s not forget about that.

Leyton 27:40

But that’s great. I wanted to shift gears a little bit. And I have to say there are many things that relate to me intermodal, like, I’ve been in Boston for 30 years. So some of the situation like I did, where were you the one to Thompson Island. And so there are scenes like that they were like, very touching into molesting you, and very, very nice things. But I wanted to sort of like talk about, I mean, pretty much bring us back to the issue of like, in some ways, race equity and the issue of gentrification in the city of Boston. I think in some ways, and your work ethic has been sort of like trying to sort of like, not just speak up, but also like be an example of somebody who’s a little like, organizing. And, by the way, I also did work for city level one. So I was very pleased to see you there. Standing up and, and doing that protest. So if you can if you can talk more about like I wanted to sort of like you tell me more about how you see like, like Boston with things that are right now I know there’s a long history of like, neighborhood segregation, school segregation, and issue when the integration happens, and many things that are still lingering in many different levels. And now being gentrified. Do you have any reflections that you’d like to share? Other Lego Iran activation and organizing?

Dixon 29:20

Yeah, boss is a fascinating city. And again, being generational to Boston, I want to think about the displacement of my family generations and generations ago from Beacon Hill right? as African American Northerners as working class as domestic labor, and how they will push out of Beacon Hill and ended up in New in Newton, Massachusetts, and how they sought a place to be able to build community and worship on their own. And found at Myrtle Baptist Church, a new in center, the matriarchs of our line, and how thank you to my paternal relationship with my family from New in. I think often times in development we miss where it stands on the neck, shoulders and bodies of the people who existed in that city. One of the conversations I really hear spoken about we always talking about how to make room in the city for so many. But we don’t talk about what community was last. The advocacy for the women specifically around people of colors around African American communities in Boston, in the face of gentrification was we knew the city was being gentrified. A long time ago, we knew there was no space for African American communities. And that’s brought forth by just looking I encourage anybody to look at the statistics for the diminish nature, numbers of African American families here in the city of Boston, I realized that nobody talked about that, right. nobody talked about how few African American families there existed in the city. How we were replaced, right, and in the truest way of a colonized country in the truest ways of politics, right and a truest way of pitting communities against each other. You know, we were slowly but surely replaced right by other communities with a question or a blink of an eye on what happened to all the African American businesses. African American hair salons. What happened to the African American social halls, clubs, restaurants? What happened to the African American community in his culture that once existed and thrived all through South End, all through Roxbury, all through Dorchester, right. What happened to that community there? It’s not talked about that they were no longer African American social gathering places that they’ve been closed down, or unsupported and lost. Right? So the gentrification is not doesn’t just start by raised rents, or raise rents or le iL iL Ill use policy right? Or Ill lead disseminate a policy. The red flag that there was no longer space was a for us was the diminished support around economic development to stay stabilize. And I want to talk about gentrification in Boston. It was first gutting African American communities have the ability to participate in economic development, and business development, that led to our inability to stabilize within the city that led to us being a vulnerable community that is now scattered throughout the state. And some will say New Hampshire and Rhode Island as well.

Leyton 33:42

One of the things that I that I want to share with you sort of like the fact that I mean, talking about gentrification is the fact that there are places that change the names that were like roseberry they change the name and zip codes to sort of disassociate themselves from Roxbury because he was the one that black people live right like let’s say mission hill that was part of like they changed the name yet to sort of like market themselves differently. Or maybe another like a documentary at some point James is also like all these like clubs formed by black people in Dudley and also like in the In the south end, that also was by a robbery that totally was to form over the past four years. So there was a lot of sort of like, was a thriving black community with like jazz and businesses at some point. And that’s part of the history. But, and, and the thing that I was thinking, but the geography because you mentioned cooperatives and others, and when you went, and I’m not going to guess that with the city processor, their policy that can solve things, and halfway through them, probably was for you going to.to, a CD? And what? How do you see the solutions in the model? I think about like, from a community perspective, I mean, when it comes down, sort of like we could do X, Y, and Z. I mean, if you can educate you have any reflections and things like that, and these problems, and driven by things that can be driven from a community perspective, and then also they can, they can sort of like bubble up to sort of the policy level in some ways.

Dixon 35:23

I’m going to shy away from answering those questions. Um, yes. In looking at this model, right, this model that was based off of the experiences that grew out of the experiences, oppressions and the challenges that I experience, and innately understood that if I, as someone that felt like I was really competent was experiencing them, then what hope is there for a Kesha? what hope is there for tolga or a shower, right? But if I as a business person, talking about social impact work as a social entrepreneur, as a farmer as agriculturalists, as an environmentalist, if I was experiencing as a pleasant person, typically, right, it’s same pleasant person I was experiencing these challenges would make me question my whole entire existence in mental health, right? What hope was there for anybody else. But what I also understood and made sure not to do is I am not a storyteller. And I push back on anybody that considers themselves a storyteller, because you can quantify the financial benefit and storytelling, right. But I, I realized that it wasn’t for me the same as James right. It wasn’t for me to tell the stories of the other women, or to take what they their kitchen table conversations they had, we have as a resolution, it’s to create space through a cooperative model to give them voice. And obviously they want to voice because they wouldn’t have signed up 900 people strong for a meet up with absolutely barely any programs on it. Right? And my fear of, or my concern of how do I support the lives of these women? The model that we’re working on as part of our cooperative is to advocate right it is to give power play some voice to the women. What can be done in the city of us? I mean, basic, the cooperative has developed the policy brief that if anybody’s interested, feel free to contact us through our website, to share a policy brief, developed by black woman from toughs write on ways that we can ensure that policy is being used properly, right, to make sure that our city stays equitable, and diverse and as a welcoming space for all races and cultures, all levels of socio economic communities. And that’s my biggest thing is where are we with policy? Where are we with our elected officials? Where are we with who’s being actionable? Right? About in policy, around understanding the community is not a reflection of the community. But who is putting policy into place to support these communities. And I always ask people to interrogate themselves on how an organization that is poised with over 900 women and the cooperative is not acknowledged in the city. And how does that tie as an African American Well, how does that tie to the history and the relationship between the city and its African American community that fought back so vigorously, that we were able to create space and demand space not only for ourselves, but for so many others, and then to be the victim of marginalization and advocacy. So I hope that you will keep an eye on the co op and some of the policy suggestions that we have But also in supporting the women and telling their stories and experience so that people who are thought leaders, right, as I look to transition out of this Co Op, that the people who are thought leaders can help with those stories in a way that creates a truly sustainable impact, I mean, sustainable to sustain each family that wants to stay in the city of Boston as a generational member and contributor to the cities and neighborhoods.

Leyton 39:53

And, yeah, that’s beautiful. I have to say ahead there is this like, low history of African American and cooperatives in the US that no many people know about? So it’s like, it’s amazing to see you sort of like continuing that? Because I think it is. Yep.

Dixon 40:13

I want to be thankful to the cooperative community around the country. I was asked if we would we be safe to say in the documentary that we are the first African American Co Op in the city of Boston. And I said, Oh, if you show me somebody else that developed the co op, historically, I will gladly see that that reputation that brands somebody else, right, because I always was looking for someone who understand, who had a cultural competence and understanding around this work to be able to again, provide us autonomy and allow us to dream out our future, and be resolution based about that future. But I want to honor Ben Bearcat, and Myrna and tamala, blacklock, tamela flatlock. And so many other people who came from around the country, African American people just to condemn hardcore it and who came and sat with me and educated me that even though I didn’t have an understanding of the history of African American clocks in Boston, that there was a deep legacy of community sustainability, stabilizing against violence, that went into most cooperatives throughout this country, and especially in the deep south. So I’d like to thank those farmers and agricultural agriculturalists in the south, who have allowed me to better understand and to harness the the symbiotic relationship between African Americans community stabilizing, and community cooperation and cooperative development.

Leyton 51:53

And the connection to the line. I mean, there is a lot I mean, I mean, one of the I mean, again, this is not about just divert, I think it’s also like, I think it’s striking to me that, that you’re connecting many components, that there have been, they’re deeply connected to the history of the African American community in the US. I know that we are running out of time. So I wanted to, I wanted to ask you about the lesson that you have learned from this documentary and reflections that you want to share with, with us, with our members from ncrc. And basically, when it comes down to sort of like organizing social and social justice, things that you that you want to share with that symptom of affections. Yeah.

Dixon 42:42

I mean, I I deeply love, honor and acknowledge so many women who are in this work. My focus is on women. My focus is on a community of African American women inclusion. I guess what I’d like to share with so many people who are involved in policy is that to look around and not see more space created for African American women and men, but African American women, is to deny the power that we’ve had in saving this country. to not have to deny an African American woman or business person, the ability to live and thrive. And I’m not talking about municipality, I’m not talking about who advocates for us. Right. I’m talking about African American women in each community in the cities and states, who came out and fought back against the legacy legacy of oppression for all of us LGBTQ immigrant rights, other minority woman, lower income class woman, lower and lower class women. I want to think about tosha Brown, I want to think about so many women, our Patreon patron saint Stacey Abrams, who push back against gerrymandering, who organize in the simplest ways of door knocking and engagement, that if we cannot consistently, not provide safe space or policies or ensure that Implementation of those policies is falls down onto the ground where women stand to honor and acknowledge African American women who with their votes came out, and said that we as a country need to be more equitable. More, more, there needs to be more quality, we need to push back against isms that are oppressive. And so I asked the audience, to watch the documentary and the microaggressions, that is still faced in 2020 2021. For communities that are perceived to have little voice, and to pick it up, and to use it as a tool of education, and to see what is happening on the ground, and to figure out ways to make sure the policies are implemented in a way that the resources are received by women of color. Right. And acknowledgement for the work that we do constantly. and wanting to have space and a country that recognizes the experiences of all.

Leyton 45:30

Thank you, James, any final reflections that you may have?

Rutenbeck 45:34

I just want to mention that we Kafi and I are engaged in a campaign to bring the film to partner organizations around the country. We have a website called reckoning and Boston calm that where you can learn more about the film. And if you want to be part if if you’re part of an organization that cares about, you know, for example, affordable housing, or racial justice, economic equity, please join with us and bring bring the film to your organization. And we will have these kinds of conversations all over the country. And I mean, we put a lot we put like six years of work into this film with very, very little funding. And we care deeply about the issues in the film. And I feel, you know, we really hope that the film maybe could make a little bit of a difference in the world, making the world a bit better. So yeah, that’s my pitch. Well,

Rutenbeck 46:45

I like to make a lot of difference. I don’t know why James is shying away from this, this documentary, making a lot of difference in how we look at communities as in the background, and my living room. I’m watching CNN, and the George Floyd trial, we need to understand how to better support these communities, so that we are not African American communities, migrant communities are not subject to the type of violence that causes them their lives, livelihoods, and issues with mental and physical stress and ailments. Almost the difference?

Leyton 47:25

Well, I have to say, it is a very powerful film, to watch. I think this guy for you did an amazing job of film and games. I mean, the whole production was amazing. So I really recommend the film, to anybody who’s gonna watch, see this workshop, we definitely want to set out like, we’re going to set on a robot gate for people to sort of see it, I do think can really connect us with, as you say, with social justice, racial justice, and economic equity that we also like, fighting for and I really want to congratulate you because i think i think it takes it takes a lot of sort of like courage to sort of like put yourself out there and go through these thinking caffee yourself, and then James, making yourself vulnerable and really gonna, like, connect to your personal life to all these sort of big and deep kind of systemic issues going on here that is affecting all of us. So I want to thank you for being part of this again in this workshop, and I appreciate the Do you. Thank you. And from the in the name of ncrc.

Dixon 48:45

Thank you, Juan, NCRC, thank you James as usual.

Rutenbeck 48:51

Thank you Kafi and thank you Juan, 

Leyton 48:52

and let’s keep in touch has been great.

Dixon 48:53

Thank you.

Leyton 53:30

Hello everyone,

Rutenbeck 53:49

Good to see you again. 

Leyton 53:50

Now we’re live. So we have I think we have a few minutes and see we have any questions from people attending this workshop first place well again I like to appreciate your participation in this workshop and Every time that I see the trailer, I see many new things. And it’s in the field and they film so so I think it’s a I truly recommend the film to people attending this workshop. I think you sort of like I said, as I said, in the recording session that he brings some of the complexities. Yeah. Yeah, one question is about like, Kafi, if you can provide any update on the collaborative, how’s that going?

Dixon 54:48

It’s going well, we’re still, of course, doing a crowdfunder. I’m still trying to process like why we don’t have more resources around capital investment for the co op. But in that frame of thought, one, I’d like to thank Kafi, King of compass and Dr. Kim Richards, Chris hunter of lease Nkc, Brock Williams, city, Boston. And Ben briquette, Robert great gates, and especially Congresswoman Presley’s office, and especially senator Warren’s office, who I didn’t have a chance to think before because when I was going through eviction, and go through some of my more troubling issues, calls to her office are heard. And it’s unfortunate that the calls around personal issues rather than in community issues, but the responsiveness has always provided me a sincere level of hope, and what our elected officials are doing. So thank you to Dr. Warren. I mean, sorry. Senator Warren’s office, how’s it going? So this is our second year growing we’ve, as far as a co op itself, I should say, we are still organizing, we are working on business plan development, my hope is that with updated business plans and financial outlooks that we’ll be able to receive more support around capital investment problem that we’ve noticed in this Co Op. Leaf was able to Chris was able to dig into that and Kafi King, we’re able to dig into that of being in this social impact nonprofit. But for profit framework, and right now, a lot of people haven’t exposed themselves as people who could provide us capital startup money to, to complete the business planning, complete destructuring, and so on and so forth, do outreach for the women. But I’d like to admit that we’ve also just completed our first round of a community health program that we put our first round of women through. So the first round of women in the co op 10, women went through tufts program, Community Health certification, and that community health certification is to deal with to respond to the mental health issues that go into doing community outreach, and real effective work around dealing with trauma and healing. I’m very thankful to again, Dr. Ana, for working in partnership with us. And for the women who completed that program. So the CO ops going well were thankfully, which was always my intention have grown slowly, but effectively towards sustainability. And this added piece of bringing community health workers into the co op. Again, to deal with mental health and trauma issues. Is all design is the same design that we worked on five years ago, and to see it coming to fruition and all the weight, but to see it come into fruition, provide to me the utmost hope, faith and humility.

Leyton 58:21

Great, it’s good to know that. Also, there is a link of the recording embossed on website so that people can go there and see the trailer and hopefully, like, see the film. And James, I’ve been talking to different videos for the film, and it’s kind of causing people curiosity, and I saw there was an interview or some reporting. I think that will you be you are, I believe? So he’s getting sort of the word out there. We

Rutenbeck 58:52

had a New England premiere on over the weekend. And we were on radio Boston Kafi, Carl and I and there were two pieces in the Boston Globe that were both really positive. And there’s a recent piece in art fuse. Yeah, we’re getting just lots of lots of coverage for that. So and we’ll be at the Roxbury internet. National Film Festival at the end of June, as well. So that’s because we sold out at iffp. fairly quickly, this is another opportunity for people who didn’t get a chance to see it at the

Dixon 59:28

Yeah, that it was sold out showing. And the response back from public radio and web UI, on covering the subject matters has been amazing. And it’s really been amazing for me to talk about not just the work with a documentary, and the work with our long term intentions for this Co Op for women involved in agriculture and community development. But it’s been amazing to be able to not only talk about and identify myself, as a farmer, and to ask the question of our community, here in New England, and especially Massachusetts, who who are the black farmers in Massachusetts, and hopefully solely, I’m not the only one. But to hopefully, is a tribe out there of other black woman who are world and Christ farmers, him Massachusetts, you know, the to come to light. And for me to be able to find a community. And if not, begin the very large step of creating one.

Leyton 1:00:35

How you have you connected with some of those? How can I call them all the cafes around like the Massachusetts a, you know,

Dixon 1:00:44

the other cafes, we really just be farmers. A lot of this work intersected and engaged with social impact work and social entrepreneur. And I appreciate that question about talking about the many ways that we can look at this work and how it’s all interconnected. And this documentary being one of the first documentaries that show the interconnectedness of, you know, of community health and public health, especially when we look at African American minority and immigrant women. But no, they haven’t identified this. I know, it’s like one other maternal, paternal African American farmer out there, who I believe came from revisione house, but I have to believe somewhere in Massachusetts, for his maternal paternal experience of the African American growers and intentions around that there has to be more than two of us. And if they’re not, if everybody anybody knows who is out there, and who asked experience around socioeconomic class issues, African American experiences around poverty and can bring those experiences to the table around holding space, please reach out to me in Massachusetts, I would love to connect with them.

Leyton 1:02:10

Great. See this. Any questions? Comments? If not, I’m going to keep asking questions. And I mean, one thing that I’ve been thinking after, like, I like pre recorded sort of session. And they’re like, community groups in the Boston area, and other places, they’re sort of like, have you been in contact with them into a lake is sparking the interest in seeing the film or like using the film, as a as a tool for reflection for community kind of like conversations and principal? Think about how that space also can be a space for the film, that that can be used?

Dixon 1:02:52

Um, I’ll speak to my truth. And then James can speak to his, I still think that many organizations see this documentary as a grenade, or as something that can be highly politicized. We were talking to Suffolk University today. And I just had to remind them that as everybody, you know, talks about the tenacity of having that conversation with the city, I have to remind them that we hold no ill will to the Department of Neighborhood Development, or Sheila Dillon, that we just understand that it’s also a misunderstanding and a mis communication that is specific to a socio economic class here in Boston. It just so happens that that socio economic class is the majority rather than the minority. But we were talking about how nobody’s even in this political time, nobody’s question who had we talked to about this Co Op in the last five years, what city councilors we did talk to or who weren’t, wasn’t responsive to the plates. And talking about creating safe space for, you know, this generational community of African American women and men here in the city who desperately needed the space and the advocacy. So what we would be looking for is not just use it as a tool. What we’d be looking for is an in partnership and acknowledgement around still the majority of deficits that exists in thinking about food systems for African Americans, mental health services for African American women. And, you know, how we, how we re envision how funding is allocated to organizations and how we continue to innovate, and problem solving that provides actual real resolutions, rather than, you know, continues to to build these cathedrals to a solely charitable work. So, no, we haven’t had a huge response back out in Boston, we hope to be able to hear from our policymakers, and embracing the project, the finding out what the needs of the project are, through policy through, again, municipal funding. And we hope as we come to our spin around the city of Boston, Massachusetts, that we do have more outreach from people who are not afraid of these subject matters, and want to resolve them and want to understand again, not just the successes of the co op, but want to understand where we where we fail, what do we learn in five years, that’s the big thing. And also to encourage, as we think about policy, I realized that and doing a little research around an article that we were considering writing it to remind our community that this has to be policy work, and thinking about when there was a provisioning of the Massachusetts food plan A few years ago, and how in that that food revision of the foods plan for the state of Massachusetts, there was no mention of black farmers at all. And reading that over and over and over again, trying to see in partnership with that organization, how they looked at Black farmers and a co op and cooperatives and stabilizing food systems for environmental justice, climate change to meaning Development and Community Health. So it does I see it first being around policy work, but I’m hoping that a partner’s identify themselves, I’m sure James and speak to organizations, maybe around the documentary as a tool. Chains,

Rutenbeck 1:06:54

I think we’ve heard probably around like 20 screenings over the last couple of months. And they really vary widely in terms of how it how the q&a goes. But there’s some been some really deeply moving conversations that I think have really been deep and profound. We’ve talked to colleges and universities, urban planners, inquiry at Cornell University, humanities organizations. And there’s, there’s a lot more in the works in the next few months. So we just want to keep it going. We’ve got thing, I think now that we’ve sort of opened up in Boston, and it’s been seen fairly wide here, there’s going to be more opportunities in Boston. Coming up for more screenings here.

Dixon 1:07:40

My hope is that we can start landing these conversations out of just media and academia. Although we do love academia, as far as using those thought leaders in the perspective of people who have these subject matters, which are well studied and well researched, and how they, again, advise policy and policy leaders and politicians. But we have not landed squarely in the space of talking about food systems work. We want to think, the University of Vermont, the humanities course for bringing us there. But we do hope that the organizations continue to say that this is not a taboo subject matter, and that we’re not, we don’t succumb to individualism in this work, but that this is all part of the process of building a stronger community. And that, as I’ve been saying, that nobody in New England can consider themselves progressive, while silencing the voice of the people who were on the ground who were having these everyday experiences around eviction around food access around cooperative development, around self actualization and mental health and wellness.

Rutenbeck 1:09:00

I just wanted to add one that our website is a recognition in Boston Comm. Like if you’re part of an organization or university that wants to partner with us screening the film, we would welcome that opportunity. We’re at working on that. That’s a reckoning and Boston calm.

Leyton 1:09:19

That’s great. And we and we just posted that in the, in the comments site.

Rutenbeck 1:09:24

Okay, great.

Leyton 1:09:25

I think we’re running out of time.

Dixon 1:09:29

I am so sorry for the common God cooperative. I just missed one. Oh, that’s a beautiful title. But it is very egoic. So

Rutenbeck 1:09:40

I kept trying to reach, reach over to see if I could correct it.

Leyton 1:09:44

And I thought you were saying that it’s a common name for everybody. But

Dixon 1:09:52

yes, it is. Very attachments. But it’s common, good cooperative. And we also ask the community that our crowdfunder that we have on the iPhone and women platform, I’m hopefully it can be linked to this project is that if you’re interested in the work and would like to keep up with the work? Again, we don’t own this land as this weekend, I just came back from Western Mass, Southern Vermont, in western northern Connecticut looking for land and attending a polo match. That the you got become a member, it’s a $25 membership, but it keeps you up to date and in solidarity with us and where we’re going. As we expand out to rural spaces.

Leyton 1:10:42

Kafi, if you want a poster in the comments, right? I’m gonna have, because we’re running out of time, you want to post the link for that? Sure. And now, I just wanted to ask you like any final thoughts, words, games, maybe you can, for closing these these workshops,

Rutenbeck 1:11:03

I guess I’d say you know, try to see the film try to to look for opportunities to see it, we want to partner with you. I think these stories are powerful. They’re stories that I didn’t know about five years ago, myself, and that they have changed me in important ways. And I think that they have the film has the potential to change other people as well and change hearts and minds about the lives of people of color in Boston.

Dixon 1:11:35

And then an attachment to this work and keeping an eye on us and supporting us and not being afraid. Again, not we don’t ask anybody to live in guilt or shame, or be tribalistic about this work, we say that this is going to be efforts by like and RCR. I hope anyone and so many other thought leaders out there in this region to see how do we support this and then as a model, how do we replicate it in city of Boston? And how do we use it as a case study for other cooperatives and the sustainability and well lean? well meaning this as we start to look at new ways of providing health care to lower resource communities.

Leyton 1:12:16

Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate your time with us and your thoughts. Again, see the film. And Kafi you know what to find me I’m in Boston, so in a way

Dixon 1:12:29

you might be the one writing paper for Dr. Fernando onah and Nicole Morris and again coffee King and Chris hunter of very much. Okay,

Leyton 1:12:41

thank you again and have a good night. Enjoy

Join NCRC’s Chief Capital Markets Officer Eleni Delimpaltadaki Janis from Brooklyn, New York, as she sits down with small business owners and the Stavros Niarchos Foundation (SNF), one of the world’s leading private, international philanthropic organizations. They will discuss access to capital for underserved entrepreneurs and solutions to the chronic gap in small business lending, what businesses need today and how to survive a crisis. This session is ideal for financial and philanthropic institutions, investors and community development organizations interested in catalyzing our nation’s most important economic engine, as well as for entrepreneurs seeking to learn from their peers.  

Speakers:

• Dr. Elicia Jacob, Owner, Healing Waters Wellness Center & Spa
• Eleni Delimpaltadaki Janis, Chief Capital Markets Officer, Equivico by NCRC
• Stelios Vassilakis, Chief Programs & Strategic Initiatives Officer, Stavros Niarchos Foundation
• Sofia Zimmerman, Co-Owner of Ottra

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Janis 00:01 

Okay, thank you for the collaboration. Okay, so we’re alive. I see it on my attendee side. If you folks want to refresh. I think we should be live now and should be good to go. Okay. Hello. Welcome to the Just Economy Conference. Welcome to the just economy conference again for another session. It’s great to know that you’re all there, even though we can’t hear it. We cannot see you. But we can hear you though in the comments. So please share any questions that you have thoughts that may come up during the session I am Eleni D. Janis I am the chief capital markets officer at NCRC. and managing partner of Equivico and Equivico by NCRC is our new solution to support small businesses with primarily affordable financing, but also training and other types of support. None of what we do is or could be possible without the small businesses that do the hard work and those who support our own work. And I have people who present all of that today and some very dear partners as well. I will start with I do it in alphabetical order. Elicia Jacob, Dr. Elicia Jacob from Birmingham, Alabama, who is an owner of a small business have a great business, the healing waters wellness and Wellness Center and spa. And she will talk to us more about that. Welcome Elicia. Sofia Zimmerman, who is joining us from Brooklyn, and Sofia is the owner and co-owner of Ottra by Zimmerman workshop, and she will tell us more about the business. And Stelios Vassilakis, who is the chief programs and strategic initiatives officer at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation. The Stavros Niarchos Foundation is one of the leading and largest private philanthropists in the world who is also supporting NCRC in their work for a small business and supporting small businesses, and especially during COVID-19. So thank you for joining. I know that actually stages included were all entrepreneurs, here stages, including who he too had his own business, a publishing business for 10 years. So I’d love to take the time and the opportunity to share with our audience and colleagues. What does it mean to be a small business? What should people care? What are the challenges that we face? And how can we and how what will actually say us and I and everyone else who is watching can do to support entrepreneurs? So let me start let me Let’s go quickly around the table. We’ll start with our entrepreneurs. I’ll start with Elicia, can you talk to us a little bit about 32nd your business when did you acquire it, which I think is very recently during COVID. And, and where you’re based, again, just the neighborhood perhaps where you’re at?

Jacob 02:42 

Yes absolutey. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you all today. I actually am the managing principal owner of healing waters Wellness Center and spa, we’re located right smack dab in the medical center, or the heart of downtown Birmingham, Alabama. Healing waters was acquired by myself in June of 2019 2021. Of course, I’ll be celebrating my second year in business as a small business owner and employees and have my family work here in the wellness thing. So that’s that’s where we are. And and that’s who we are. 

Janis 03:49 

That’s great. And I know you broke up for a second but then you said that you that your family is working for you. Right, which is not unlike many small businesses. It’s really the impact on the family and the community is direct in many ways. Sofia, tell us about your business. I know Archer has been ingrained Hook which would love to hear about the story of Red Hook in Brooklyn. And I know that your business has been featured at New York Times, Architectural Digest, and more magazines than I can recall right now. But talk to us a little bit about your business. 

Zimmerman 04:22 

Thank you. My name is Sofia Zimmerman. I am the CO owner of Ottra by Zimmerman workshop. About 10 years ago, or actually 11 years ago, we we started Zimmerman workshop architecture design, and four years ago as a sister company that a furniture company specializes in solid wood, help tall furnishings. They’re made to order so every piece is made to order as it comes in. So we do a lot of customization work, we work with designers and, and trying to come up with them for us. And we put that first Singapore this year. So the first thing to say we’re mobile to I guess. And we are at a really interesting point in our company. Because four years ago, when we launched this, we were in a neighborhood called Dumbo in Brooklyn, we since moved to another neighborhood called the GLONASS, which is a very manufacturing-heavy neighborhood. We were there for two years in a temporary space, while we figured out where we were going to be long-term. And now we are in our new flagship space in Red Hook. And where we’re extensively going to be for the next 10 years. It’s a really special neighborhood, because it’s has its roots in manufacturing. And we’re really lucky that Well, some residential has gone a bit high end, there’s still a lot of people that grew up in the neighborhood, which is really wonderful, and a few landlords that are very much committed to keeping manufacturing in that in that area. So rather than selling off their loft buildings to developers, they’ve, they’ve made a great effort to keep small businesses and manufacturers in the area. 

Janis 06:10 

Fantastic. And I know that states can speak to that as well. But I know the neighborhood well from my also years and economic development and that commitment to supporting small businesses and also so that they can stay there and hire locally is very, very critical. So Stelios, can you talk to us a bit about the Stavros Niarchos Foundation. I’d love for the audience to know what you do. And I will and also, of course, your work at the foundation. 

Vassilakis 06:40 

Thank you, Eleni. And thank you for inviting me. It’s great to be here with Dr. Elicia Jacob and Sofia. So the Stavros Niarchos Foundation is an international philanthropic institution, which is actually celebrating its 25th year of existence this year, what we do basically is provide support where it’s needed the most. And over those 25 years, we have done over 4000 grants at 130 countries worldwide. As I said, we’re an international institution, but we have to do at least 50% of our work in Greece. And that’s by definition of our founders will. And that’s what we have been doing over the last 25 years. And there are four main areas that we concentrate, arts and culture, education, social welfare, and health and support. And within those four main areas, we do medium, small and very large grants. What defines us as an institution is the fact that we have an open application process, which means that anyone from anywhere in the globe, as long as they have a designated 50123, or the equivalent status, they can apply to the foundation for support. And we are obligated as a programs department to look into these applications and evaluate them very carefully, which actually allows us to come into touch and collaborate with organizations that would have been very difficult to collaborate with. Otherwise, he would have been almost impossible for us to get to be acquainted with the important work that they do. I work in the programs department and I’m the head of programs for the foundation and I collaborate with a great team of colleagues whose focus is on evaluating the proposals from around the globe from organizations seeking support. 

Janis 08:29 

Thank you, sir. And I’ll say that from my point of view, working, working with the foundation and having worked with many other foundations, and obviously we are always appreciative of, of the opportunity to access capital to do good work. And, and from the point of the foundation, that I always find that SNF is a Dewar, not I know you said support but you support in many ways and even in the way that we are unfolding our small business grant program and other small business support that we are providing. You have been part of ultimately helping us design it and And which brings me to a topic of what the small businesses need. Because we have our needs as an organization who is trying to support. And when I work with entrepreneurs and have done so for many years, I know that you know, the things I hear is access to capital. Why? Why is that critical? Is it possible at all? And then when access to capital comes with, with more than that, it comes with a support, it comes with value support, maybe introductions to a network, or advice, it is even more so valuable. So to get straight to it, I’d love to start with with that. Union COVID, especially capital, and how do we make ends meet? How do we grow even as a business? If there is the opportunity isn’t is a top of mind for everyone? So Elicia, I’d love to hear from you. I know you have a pretty impressive plan of pivoting and surviving COVID. You had a great and we’ve had an impressive career, actually, before you decided to get yourself into owning a business. So you can tell us what got into you and decided to do so. But you bought your business just a few months before COVID hit? Can you talk to us about that? And how did you pay your bills? Did you close your business for a few months? What happened? 

Jacob 10:30 

Okay, so great questions for me during the shutdown that occurred? It was a little scary here. And just to preclude that, yes, I have the opportunity to work at a large Medical Center here in this ama, as a senior director of a large nursing service. So I acquired a lot of my business sense from working in this. So I come from a line of entrepreneurs. So I’ve had several people within my family that were entrepreneurs. So it’s always just been in my spirit. So when COVID hit as you said, I had been in business. Let’s see, I started in June of 2019. And in the beginning of the year of 2020, is when we had COVID to hit. Well, of course, anyone who is an entrepreneur and starting a business knows in the very beginning, that you cannot expect really to be your business to be as profitable, probably for at least three to five years. That’s typically what we look at. Well, when it hit and as you guys know, I did not tell you all of the service suite services we provide but we are most known for providing colon, colon hydrotherapy. We also do a number of other services. Like we offer infrared saunas, biofeedback, we do some detox services. We have a number of herbal and homeopathic products that we provide to our clients as well as educational classes and opportunities have soared. Well, of course, when COVID hit no one wanted to be around anyone. I mean, we were advised to shut the businesses down. Well, we ended up getting a few calls in my clients were really nervous, because many of them depend on us to actually help them to eliminate. So I spoke with my daughter, I spoke with our also the doctor, our county doctor and his office and let them know that hey, I’ve had a few clients to call me they’re really having difficulty right now. I mean, they’re stressed, they already have these situations, the emergency rooms, did not want anyone in the emergency rooms unless it was necessarily unless it was COVID related. And the doctors offices were not really seeing patients either. People just didn’t know what to do. So I spoke with my daughter, as I said, I spoke with Jefferson County, or our county doctor here, his office, and we were given permission to go ahead and open up our services because we definitely were an essential service. So we actually did open our services, but we only offer two of our therapies. One of them is the biofeedback which really helps people to manage stress. And the other was calling hydrotherapy because we do have clients with lazy colons different issues where they just couldn’t go it was just it was horrible at the time. Well, not only that, we did have a few clients come in, but business was at a snail’s pace, maybe a snail’s snail’s pace, so we had to figure out something else to do. And I got together with my family or my staff and we decided that we were going to go ahead and make mask because at the time that wasn’t something that people actually had access to. Well, being a nurse here and being a part of a nursing Association here, I had a lot of contacts as well. So I broke out my sewing machine ended up having to purchase another one. And we had an assembly line at my home. And we made face masks, we made cloth face masks, and we sold 1000s of face Madeline thing. 

Janis 14:36 

That’s amazing. That’s a that isn’t a brand new realism, a way of obviously keeping your business afloat. And and also helping the community right help because that’s important to any masks. And it’s not the only thing but masks were at. They were at scarce supply. I remember, you know, we couldn’t we It was so difficult to get the mask. And how long did you keep that up? For? How long did the mascara simply go business continue for? 

Jacob 15:08 

For a few months, I come to New York where you guys are as well, yes, I got requests from all over from the ask. And we get a month but after you know, after doing very well since people have this has really shaken up the community. And people are taking their wellness and their health care. And so we actually seen an increase in our volumes here. So it’s, it’s actually worked out really well for us here. 

 Janis 15:46 

And speaking of volume, Elicia, and growing business, it sounds that your businesses on a on a path to grow. I’m wondering, in the face of volume, if the volume continues, and you see the need of expanding your operations, perhaps you need more real estate or to hire beyond the family. But even the family doesn’t matter hiring more people, ultimately, how would you go about it? And do you if you needed capital? Where would you find it? So you know, this is your first time doing this, but you’ve been in business obviously for a long time? 

Jacob 16:21 

Yeah, so great question, I actually have really close to I stay in contact with my SBA director. And also I have a close relationship with my bankers here. down to it, and it is coming to it are coming. We are in a position where we are we feel like we’re ready to expand. I have clients who come from all over the South East. So we are hoping to actually open up not hoping we are going to open up a lot. And and another part of either Mississippi or another part of Alabama because it is needed, I have volume that comes in from those areas. So as far as access to capital, that would be my first step is to actually approach the SBA and also the bankers that I work with. And because it’s worked in the past, that would be the route that I’m actually to gain access.  

Janis 17:29 

That’s fantastic. That’s great. And obviously good luck with it. And it is important the fact that you have a relationship with the banking institution. And and and wishing you luck with it, but we’ll come back to it. So so it’s great actually to hear about the business that people take right in your journey in the last 12 months has been probably a roller coaster, but the roller coaster that now it’s just going straight up. But from pivoting to a completely different business model for a few months now to seeing growth, which is great actually not a very strong reminder of the fact that when we talk about small businesses, and even during this crisis there is there’s different level of needs and types of support that businesses need. And some of them do need support to actually grow because there are new opportunities that the situation has created. Sofia and Sofia, talk to us about how you have fared in the past 12 to 16 months now maybe 14 months. What’s happened did you have to shut operations? Is your order. You know, go down demand supply demand go down? Sofia think you need to unmute. 

Zimmerman 18:41 

Okay, I’m back. Okay, good. Yeah, we were in a very interesting spot when COVID hit in. I think it was September October of 2019 that we signed our lease for our space in Red Hook. So by then that was a huge undertaking to get to that place to be able to sign a lease and then start the build out with our landlord. And thank goodness things were taking longer than expected because we I had an agreement that we didn’t serve the pavement until you’re actually in that building. And so we were supposed to be moved in by March 1, that our lambda was behind with the build out. And so we were stuck in our temporary space for a little bit longer, I now look at that as a good blessing. And, and then we didn’t actually end up in our new space until September of 2020. Um, when the COVID hit, you know, I, I joke with some fellow furniture makers that were already in living with such uncertainty so often, as entrepreneurs in general, I’m sure. So when things hit, we just, you know, had to figure out day by day how to do things we like to leave, like Alicia, but we’re very fortunate to have a good relationship with the SBA and also with our bankers. So when it came time to apply for the pbps, we, we didn’t make it in that first round. But we did in the second and, and things worked out. And that helped us a great deal. We have a small, we at the time, like even going into COVID, we had a pretty lean team. So we didn’t have to let anybody go. Some people left voluntarily to take care of their families for a while, and then they came back. And for the most part, we were we were shut down and working from home in ways that we could. We did obviously, like everyone else experience a decline in business, especially when things are so uncertain that month of March, early April, when people didn’t know what was going to happen. With furniture companies, the way things work is you put a deposit down on an order and then you pay the balance, when it’s complete, there’s a lot of hesitancy to put down an order on a deposit if there’s any sense that a business might go under. So so we had to deal with that for a little while, but we had some existing orders to to finish out and then slowly through a lot of relationships that we already had, and trust that we already had with designers that we work with and furniture collectors that we work with, order started to come in. And I think part of it was a little bit altruistic, especially I’m part of people that just wanted to buy something nice for their home because they’re not traveling as much, or they just wanted to support a small business. So um, so while it was very difficult, I think we took things day by day. And I came across a little note I had written to myself in March last year and said kind of connection service and gratitude, like what can I do everyday that’s Connect connecting, how can I be a service? How can I be grateful? And I think, and in the end, I think we ended up stronger as a result, like we’ve learned so many lessons as a result of this, that I think will will, will keep firm for a long time. From a staffing perspective. So orders have since picked up with the furniture. From a staffing perspective, it’s been a bit of a challenge, because we’ve been hesitant now now with explanations, we’re more ready to hire more people. But, um, you know, last, last fall as an example, we were still things were opened up in New York. But we are still hesitant because we didn’t know what what was coming in, which are we going to have another shutdown, we didn’t want to be in a place where we had to lay people off. So again, we just stayed very lean and nimble and made do and thank goodness our team, we have just a team of troopers that have been fantastic through all of this. And now we are finally in a spot where we are hiring and we tend to hire staff that is, you know, we’d love to be able to train from the ground up. So we have a system now in place where we have an entry, a couple of entry level positions. And we train people in the art of making furniture. And then we have some senior level people as well who handle that training. So like I said, I think we’ve learned a lot of really wonderful lessons and all of this we’ve had some hard lessons too. But but but but we’re here and and really happy to be here. 

Janis 23:21 

And then keep going. And I’d love to come back to the to the point of hiring and hiring and training because when we when we talk about small business and supporting small businesses, so rather I would say I’m not sure if we’re supporting or giving small businesses access to what they should have the resources that small businesses have as well. But But both we you know, work with philanthropy work with, with with government, but also when I was investing in small businesses on behalf of government, and you know, oftentimes would get questions about the about what whether the side effects so to speak, are really other side benefits of investing in a small business and supporting it. And I think that what first development to some extent training is really actually is a very is a really important value, both for the intrapreneur themselves. Because whether this you know, however long the business may last it could be for a very long time, or it could be the intrapreneur moves on to something else. But both the skills that an entrepreneur built, but also those actually that the people that you train is a is a word I always like to see, what I see is more small businesses as a local workforce development, you know, training machine, so to speak in a very local micro level, which brings me to Stelios, talk to us about the foundation in a way, the Stavros Nicholas Foundation, started thinking about small businesses. I know you support a range of work across many sectors, I believe you’ve supported entrepreneurs in Greece, but this is still different for you. Can you talk to us about what motivated you? What are you hoping to accomplish? 

Vassilakis 25:04 

So yes, we have done a lot of initiatives that entail entrepreneurial support. But we have never done something like this before. So we had never provided direct support to businesses, everything that we have done in the past involves supporting non for profit, local, non for profit organizations, not not businesses. So at the beginning of COVID-19, we established a landmark initiative of 100 million dollars to provide support, emergency relief, support and recovery support for people suffering from COVID-19. And what became evident to us immediately from the work that we’re doing with our partners on the ground, that we were dealing with a situation that was utterly devastating. And it was rather extraordinary, there were extraordinary circumstances. And you know, you couldn’t really look at things in the same way that we had to look at things before. We had to be flexible, and we had to think out of the box. So small businesses are the heart of the community, and they were suffering the most, that became evident immediately on, the only thing that you had to do was to walk around New York City to see storefronts be closed to realize what is happening. And we were involved with a number of direct cost assistance efforts within that COVID initiative. So when you when NCRC, unequivocal approached us to discuss this, we thought that was a unique opportunity to help communities and to help businesses within communities. Already, we had worked with small businesses in different ways, as part of the COVID-19 relief initiative, we did a street vendors project, where we provided support to a non for profit that was supporting street vendors, so that they can cook meals and continue to do work. And then to provide these meals to communities in need. And we did another program called rethink food through which we supported restaurants, again, for over a period of one year, and there’ll be location was to maintain the working force and at the same time to prepare food that will go to communities in need. So that you know that we were doing at the time. And then we again, we realized that because the situation was extraordinary. And because you know what businesses more businesses could usually count on in emergency cases. Let’s say for example, insurance wasn’t available now. No one could anticipate and no one could take insurance for a pandemic. That was that was a fad. So we decided to do something very unusual for us as an institution as an organization, which was to provide direct grants to small businesses, grants that they will never be obligated to pay back to pay back. And one of the things that I noticed, I mean, there, there has been a lot of support from the government side, one cannot deny that. But you know, reading, reading about that support. reading about that support, it became evident that a lot of businesses were afraid, actually to receive that supports, simply because they were worried about the terms. So we decided to do something that was very different, and something that in a sense, operated as a grant rather, as you know, rather than in law. 

Janis 28:34 

Yeah, I think that I agree, certainly for the support of government. And it is true that still a lot of people were left behind and have been left behind, even in the distribution of the SBA back PPP loans, especially during the first round. A lot of very small businesses, including sole proprietors, but not only were unable to access the funding, and that was really critical at the time. And in our studies. NCRC has been conducting mystery shopper studies for at least two years. Probably more than that. And to assess behavior in the banking system. And we have found that event during the distribution of PPP loans, which are ultimately non risk loans for a financial institution, because they are paid for by government, there was discrimination in the way that people of color were treated, compared to compared to white people. And and it comes in the forms a very subtle, quite very subtle ways. And I trust that they’ll most of it, if not all of it is is implicit is unintentional. But it is the outcome ultimately, is that there is discrimination, whether intentional or not, and access to resources can be limited. Which is why it’s it’s actually great to have that it’s also great to hear from Alicia and Sophia, two businesses that are optimistic, obviously, and you’re not the only ones. It’s part of the nature, right being an entrepreneur, you have to be optimistic, but you’re also back and back in business and doing well. Can we can we talk about, let me check the time. So we have a little bit more time, which is great. We have another 15 minutes. And while I’m about to ask this question, stay here, I think I told you before we get on the phone, but I would love to invite you to ask any questions, you may have the entrepreneurs that love the opportunity to connect with them, please, you know, go ahead and ask it. But when you think of when you think when you think of the top three, maybe lessons learned, or three facts or factors of success for an entrepreneur, and for a small business owner in specific compared to maybe a tech, you know, entrepreneur that’s backed by, by very, very different sources of capital. What are those factors, and Sofia, Elicia, anyone who wants to go first, 

Zimmerman 31:01 

I’ll volunteer one, I may have to think of it longer, but three, but one that just comes to mind. So often, to me is community over competition. And I think that we are just so and I’ve learned that we are part of a growing community of small businesses, and we it’s much more fun, it’s much more productive. And it just makes it much more profitable for us to all be helping each other out, rather than betting against each other in any way. So even with design companies in our neighborhood in Red Hook, I could look at all of those as competitors, I could also look at them as a part of a community and be bringing designers to come and see me and then go and see all these other design companies while but while we’re here, so I believe that community and creating a sense of community amongst like minded businesses, amongst you know, some businesses is very different from your own. Whatever works is a way that you can all build off each other, it can be very lonely, running small business, really lonely, stressful, so many things, and to be among others, and to be fostering sense of community is is essential. And, and I think especially with your competition to figure out a way that you can all work together and we’ll build each other up and lift each other up. It leads to good things. 

Janis 32:24 

Yeah. I’d love to Elicia, do you have thoughts on that. And that’s such an such an important point. I was thinking about it, you know, before when you you were about small businesses and supporting others, that may perhaps some of your suppliers or your partners are also a small business and thinking of that triple effect. And then moving forward together. I you know, I personally like to think and Dana Nelson and writing, she was the one who said this a couple of days ago that even the way we approach work is that the market shouldn’t be a zero sum competition. It’s not a zero sum game. Rather, it is when we combine resources that we can lift each other up and rise together. So Elicia, Coco, Does that ring for you? The idea of working with other small businesses supporting the community, businesses or people in the community? And how is it relevant to what you do every day? 

 Jacob 33:18 

Oh, my goodness, it is it is the most relevant. I’m going to tell you my I guess my my skills as far as social media and the like, are probably something that I can definitely improve on. But during this time, having the opportunity to communicate with others that you couldn’t do it in person now, but you had to find other means of being able to communicate with others, your needs and your wants. They got to talk to you about the fact that during this time, I had a hard time finding gloves. I mean, they were like nowhere to be found. And having, having relationships with people who are in business as well. And having ways to communicate with them other than face to face because we couldn’t do that, if me an opportunity to do something just that simple as getting gloves, and from all over work, the ones that I was used to, but they don’t, they don’t if they worked well. So I think just having the opportunity to be able to communicate effectively and efficiently with others, without being face to face was really something that whale brought us together even more so because that people even that I wouldn’t have thought I would have met, you know, the face to face encounter. So having that communication really has made a big difference in just where I am today, which is another reason why I know it’s time for me to expand. And oh, elsewhere, because now even more people are hearing about, you know, what we do? And you know, what we offer? So yeah, community is really important. And communication, it with those in your community is very important. Well, 

Janis 35:21 

Wanting to check next Stelios, I saw you nodding, I didn’t know if you wanted to intervene here. And you spoke about community as well, obviously, how you were helping restaurants and restaurants helping people. 

 Vassilakis 35:34 

But I think I mean, I wanted to make a point here. You know, people work very hard, and they’re very innovative. But I think, you know, what is really important when you own a small business is to be able to have access to resources. So when when things get tough, you can utilize those resources to survive. My experience, when I used to own a small publishing business was that everything seemed very fragile and tenuous. So you know, one mistake, one unlikely step one, bad day one and one one unfortunate event, and it could put you into a difficult situation. And you end up you know, with a snowball kind of effect. And I’ll give you an example. For example, the street vendors, are they willing, they were willing to work, they were willing to do something, but unless somebody else stepped in and provided the resources, in this case, the funding for them to be able to do so they will, they would have been unable to do that. So having these resources and its own only, you know, the ability to get loans, what matters also is the terms under which you get those loans, many times the terms are prohibitive. So it is very much the same as you know, getting a loan and not getting long. Because if something goes wrong, then again, you find yourself in a difficult situation. So making sure that people who own small businesses have the resources and the help they need when you know, to grow and also to be supported when things go wrong is really, really important. 

Janis 37:14 

Yeah, yes, that’s a very, thank you, thank you for sharing that that’s a very good point. That when things go wrong, and how easy it is actually for, to have to handle a very significant losses. If one step if you take one one step and the terms of the loan, I mean, thank you for sharing that. That is obviously we spend a lot of our time thinking and working on that and also together working on it. But yes, taking a loan that is has carries an APR, it costs and interest rate of 30% 40% is not a loan than anyone should be taking out. But unfortunately, actually a large majority of businesses taking very small loans between 50,000 and 150,000. And up with with those types of loans or other access to cash to create cash with discus mentioned because merchant merchant cash advance and other very expensive form of loans. And it’s and we will be doing more of that I know a lot of our members at NCSA for community development financial institutions, focusing on affordable loans, and finally helping the business prepare the paperwork to get the loans. But but that is really critical. And there is a huge gap, it’s estimated that there is an $87 billion demand for very small commercial loans that is not met. And we know that entrepreneurs have been so this partner especially women, people of color, but really every very small business that they won’t even actually go to a bank that they get to a point and it’s not specific to banks but they won’t even pursue that loan sometimes because they expect that they will be they will be turned down which oftentimes will actually stop prevent people from even thinking about growth, which is an Elicia can talk about that. But growth and growing right is exciting. And the same for you Sofia you’re moving or have already moved to a new space and it’s a Same thing I’m sure it’s probably also nerve wracking to see your bills going up and being liable for that. And so fear How did you I know you own Elicia ago, you were about to speak? 

Jacob 39:21 

Oh, yes. So you, you spoke about bills going up. Now, that is something that I have definitely happen. And I have not passed that cost on to my clients as of yet either. And believe me, it is something that I am concerned with. And I will say one of my saving graces has been the fact that my volumes have grown, you know, tremendously. So that’s been one of my saving graces. But yes, I definitely see a difference. And the cost of my supplies that I actually everything. So although I have not today, pass that cost on to my clients, I know that I have to seriously sit down and take a look at this and make some decisions on how we’re going to move forward with this situation being that it is today. You know, I am a fairly new business owner. I don’t know when you actually consider a business owner as being season. You know, is it depending on how long they’ve been in business. But they have encountered since they’ve been in business? how well they’ve weathered the storm. Not exactly sure. But yeah, it’s something really that I do think about. And you probably are dealing with some of the same issues. Sophie, I’m not exactly sure. But everything, everything is more expensive than what it was when I first started opened my business. Yeah,  

Zimmerman 41:00 

I agree. If people keep asking us, you know, they’re the price of what is going up. And thankfully, I think it’s more applicable to the building materials, wood, like plywood, two by fours, things like that. So hasn’t hit us yet. But what I will say is, and we see increases in cost, and all sorts of little ways things creeping up. But one of the lessons that we’ve learned as well is that there are certain things that we that aren’t happening now. And business still continues on. And in a way more successful. As an example, trade shows I used to invest so much money in going to present our furniture at trade shows. And we realized, you know what, maybe we don’t need to be doing that we’ve done Okay, the last few months without buying an expensive booth and setting up our thing. So finding different ways exploring different ways to get our product in front of people, because certain things just aren’t happening as much anymore. Another example would be, you know, all these things that can happen more virtually. So finding, this has pushed us to explore ways of presenting our furniture in different ways. And some ways happened to cost a lot less than the ways that we were doing things before. So So I look for the silver linings, and that’s been one of them. But, but agree that like raw materials, transportation, nobody ever wants to pay for their shipping. Shipping, a lot more. And it is what it is and, and and will make do. But I think as cost goes up, and inevitably, like we are going to have to increase the pricing, we actually cut the pricing a bit when COVID hit of certain pieces, make things more enticing. But we are going to have to start increasing our pricing gradually. And I think that when that happens, people just need to see the value of what they’re you know, this isn’t you just jacking up your pricing is you offering a service, you are offering a value, you’re offering integrity, you’re offering authenticity, so many things that are baked into that. And they may find it for less somewhere else. But there’s so many things that you add into what you do that you can’t put a cost like a price on right. 

Janis 43:26 

And Sofia on that actually both thank you both as a fan Elicia for bringing up the increase of operational costs. And I hear from it’s happening across the board and I hear from restaurants for example, last week, I had a conversation about one of the major food suppliers I’m sure they’re not unique in it have increased like a straight up increase of 12%. So the same restaurant with a lot less business now has to pay at least 12 12% more for the same chicken or lectures that they were buying a year ago. And then that I’m gonna make one more comment and then I only have it for two more minutes. So I want to answer a critical question from our audience. But to go to status point about the terms of a loan, which is only a loan is only a part of the resources that the business needs. But ultimately, that the cost of the loan does impact the cost of your business, right? It is part of your operational cost, if you have a loan, whatever the resources are, that you use, and which is another reason that it is critical that we that that those loans at lending comes at an affordable, cost affordable and actually honest and appropriate cost. Because if not, someone will have to pay for it. And and if that absolutely is a consumer, but it is the business as it goes through your employees will make less right you will make less with make make you more unlikely to keep your business open and employ people in your community, your employees make less, there is a triple effect that just continues through the system. And as especially now it’s always been a problem. But especially as we’re coming out of COVID, but we see in lending is that first of all, many lenders completely stopped making business loans for a while. And now there is increased demand, but it is likely that loans will come at a higher cost, because the source of capital proceeds tends to perceive and will perceive at least that sometimes a small business lending as riskier than before. Which means that now you have to pay more, even though actually your business may be stronger than it was before because you just made made it through coffee. I’ll go to my question. The question rather from Kathy Jackson’s Cathy Jackson gent, she would like to hear from both of you about how he created a good solid relationship with the SBA and your bank here. And, Elicia, I’d love to hear from you first, because I know that’s a major challenge. You make it sound easy. And you’re easy. And you happen to have it. But can you talk to us about that and give advice to others who are listening? 

 Jacob 46:00 

Yes. So my the first relationship I did have was first with the SBA, I went to them with my business plan, and explain to them exactly what I was looking to do. They actually did like the plan. And just they supported me. The SBA really were the ones that helped me with establishing the relationship with the banker, which I thought was phenomenal. And to this day, the vice presidents of the bank, we will we will chat on the phone, if there’s something that looks kind of strange, that happens in my account, we’ll chat on the phone. So I think it’s really important that you put yourself out there you put yourself in front, you be the one to initiate that contact, if possible, utilize the community resources that you have available. I mean, there there are wide, but what are some of the resources? Yeah, so limited resources. here in the state of Alabama, not only do we have the SBA, but there’s an organization here that’s called score. And I’m sure that there are organizations very similar to score throughout the US and what score provides are mentors. For people who are new into business, people who have been in business for quite some time, they provide those mentors to you utilize that, because it’s free to join, utilize that resource to help you with establishing those relationships. There are there are countless numbers of YouTubers who are out there that actually provides some of that information as well. These are free resources that are available to you, you’re going to have to be the one to go out and seek them but I think that’s a great question. Your SBA can actually provide you with patience and as I said organizations like score as well as provides mentorship and the amazing thing what a mentor can do for you while you’re on your journey. 

Janis 48:15 

Thank you and an SBA loan I think it takes a few months to actually get ready and take it so start early Elicia but they trusted you know that Sofia, right answer  

Zimmerman 48:26 

Okay, so I think we were at a slight advantage with our furniture company I try because we have been banking with we’ve had an existing business account with like since we started Zimmerman workshop, the architecture practice six years earlier. So we’ve always prioritized having a very good relationship with our bank, which we basically chose on proximity. It was across the street from our office at the time and made it easy for us to keep in touch have faced with name pop on over there whenever we needed to ask questions and I think that it was just a very personal relationship that developed as a result. And then I would say with, with the SBA and I, like we went through that process a year and a half before COVID. And I will say it’s a lot of work, it’s so much to put that together, don’t wait until you have to do it, I think it’s a good idea to try to get your lines of credit, get your SBA before, before you’re in a stressed out position to be getting it and take care of your own personal credit as well as big as that. I know, that was a factor with that with us when we were when making our applications. But to your point, Alicia, I think there are so many amazing resources in Brooklyn. evergreen is one of them, that comes to mind. It’s an organization that’s really championing keeping industry and manufacturing in Brooklyn. And there are countless others study from like, macro or sorry, micro or macro chamber Chamber of Commerce organizations all the way down to very like, like, organizational specific places. And I know I’ll give a shout I think like evergreen is one that I just, I am so grateful for various resources that they’ve sent our way. And they’ve just been so generous with all sorts of advice courses, even just our newsletters have always been very encouraging. And last point is surround yourself with other people that have gone through the process of SBA and lending. Like we have a friend who runs a motorcycle school. And she was the one that was constantly answering all sorts of questions when you’re going through the SBA process. And we’re really grateful that that we have various entrepreneurs, various backgrounds in our corner. 

Janis 50:53 

Peer to peer, thank you. And some of the things we’ve learned through this work and we’ll be launching is a training for small businesses, that’s very high level quality training, applied learning that is focused on peer to peer learning, having both industry experts but also really bringing the the entrepreneurs together and solving for career problems. We are out of time and I know that both of us will have clients to attend to because you do run a small business. And in the end, I appreciate it. I know some people are asking about information regarding the affordable loans that will be made that we will be making available. So I say that that will be coming next month. Stay tuned. If you are on this chatroom, we have your email. So we will make sure that you know about it and other people are asking for more of these sessions and to discuss the financial harrows. I know we presented a great optimistic picture with entities optimistic there is so much that is happening in between your ability to actually do what you do and be successful and the ups and downs that we all go through. So we we will be launching and CSE unequivocal will be launching a series of a series of events for small businesses specifically actually to talk about some of those hard end skills and solutions, real solutions of how you know how do you get the loan? How do you manage your operational costs of hire people more to come stay up. And the only gentleman in the in the room, legislature will ask you for your last thoughts as we’ve been we have a minute ago. 

Vassilakis 52:33 

Um, I have to say, first of all, I’m honored to have been asked to participate in this. And I’m also humble and normal that we have had the opportunity as a foundation to do this to provide support to businesses at a really critical time. This is what we do. And our work acquires meaning because there are people there that they can be the recipients without the businesses without the people without the non for profit organizations, whatever they may be. Our work has no meaning. So thank you for inviting me and thank you for the great work you do. 

 Janis 53:10 

Thank you. Thank you on everyone’s behalf for the work that you do. Sofia and Elicia say is very well said thank you everyone for being here and I look forward to doing a lot more and keep it up. Have fun. Bye 

When the country went on lockdown, schools and districts across the U.S. scrambled to pivot to virtual-only learning. The lack of resources to make that massive shift happen only amplified what many in education and community development already know — that even 65 years since Brown v. the Board of Education, America’s schools and neighborhoods are still segregated. The racial achievement gap has yet to be closed, zip codes are determinants of educational success and opportunity is isolated, at best. As many parents grappling with schooling during COVID may attest, the struggle between being a “good parent” and being a good citizen, is all too real.

Communities face difficult decisions and confront old patterns as they return to school planning. Rich, White schools and neighborhoods forge ahead in resources and opportunity, while Black and Brown schools and neighborhoods flounder.

Join this engaging, potentially uncomfortable panel discussion with community development professionals, education researchers and civil advocates experts on the fractured nature of neighborhoods and public education, promising efforts around integration and the role of community development in expanding opportunity as we navigate schooling in the pandemic and beyond.

Speakers:

• Tomas Monarrez, Research Associate, Urban Institute
• Mathew Palmer, Executive Director, School Planning, Durham Public Schools
• Dan Reed, Writer + Urban Planner, Just Up The Pike
• Ananya Tadikonda, Former Student Member, Montgomery County Board of Education
• Karen Kali, Senior Program Manager, NCRC

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Kali 00:02 

Hi, everyone, thank you so much for joining us today for this session, School, Segregation, COVID, is part of NCRC is just economy conference. I’m Karen Kali, Senior Program Manager here at NCRC. If you joined us last week for the start of the conference, we had the pleasure of having Nicole Hannah Jones, Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist, The New York Times as a keynote speaker. And she said something that’s sort of been sticking with me this past week, she said in response to a question that was asked to her around segregation in schools and the possibility of integration, and I am definitely paraphrasing here. But she responded by saying, We’ve never had a society where white Americans truly want to integrate schools. They say they do, but their actions don’t match up. And that’s, that’s my observation on schools and neighborhoods just sort of sit with for a little bit. I think that, you know, certainly she began the conversation for us last week, and today, we’ll move a little bit further in the dialogue. And, you know, we certainly won’t solve school and neighborhood segregation today. And some of the discussion, you know, frankly, may be a little uncomfortable. But I think that’s part of the process of getting to a better place within our communities. I think that anytime that we dissect issues or you know, concerns that are especially about children, there tend to be a lot of feelings involved. And that definitely makes sense. I certainly have those feelings to parent and as someone who really believes in the power of local schools as a foundation for opportunity. So with that, let me introduce our moderator today, Dan Reed, who’s going to help us walk through the conversation today. Dan Reed is a writer who’s worked with appeared in The New York Times, city lab, architect, magazine, and others. Dan is an urban planner, working with communities all over the United States, and is also a blogger and popular local blog, called just up the pike, a longtime community advocate. And coincidentally, Dan is also my neighbor, which is pretty exciting. And so in all seriousness, this is, you know, a very important conversation around Communities in Schools and neighborhoods aggregation and the impact, right that there is or can be on educational opportunity, and wealth and allocation of resources, and so much more. So thank you, Dan, for leading us through this discussion today. And I look forward to the conversation that we’ll have with our panelists, and I’ll turn it over to you now. Thanks, Dan.  

Reed 02:31 

Awesome. Thank you so much, Karen, for introducing me. I’m really excited to be here. As Karen said, my name is Dan Reed. I’ll be moderating today’s session. And I want to first off to set the level. We’re going to have sort of an open conversation between the panelists and then shift to q&a afterwards. And to kick it off, we’re going to have a presentation from one of our panelists. So first, I’m going to introduce our panelists. Joining us today are Ananya Tadikonda. She is a sophomore at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and was a former montgomery county maryland student Board of Education member. Thanks for being here. We’ve also got Matthew Palmer. He is the executive director of school planning for the Durham public schools. And finally, Tomas Monarrez, a research associate in the center on education data and policy at the Urban Institute who’s going to kick things off with the presentation about school segregation. Thank you so much for being here. 

Monarrez 03:35 

I thank you, Dan. Okay, should I begin with my presentation? 

Reed 03:43 

Yeah.  

Monarrez 03:45 

Okay, wonderful. Let me go ahead and begin my slideshow. Can’t really see my slides right now team. Oh, sorry, everybody.  One. Let me try it again. Okay, great, everybody, I can’t really see you. So if you give me a sound cue, that’d be great. I’m going to assume you can hear me. Yeah. Okay. So I want to talk a little bit about school and neighborhood segregation and its causes of this old social bill. And I’m gonna make this pretty quick. So it’s gonna be a little fast. But you know, you can’t really begin this conversation without a little bit of antecedents regarding history. So we all know in this room that you know, the United States was founded under an economic system 

Reed 04:56 

We can’t see your screen yet. Yes. I’m sorry.  

Monarrez 04:58 

You can’t see it?  

Reed 04:59 

No. 

Monarrez 05:01 

Okay. I can see it. I’m sorry.  

Reed 05:10 

These are weird times. And we’re all still figuring it out. 

Monarrez05:15 

And you see me?  

Reed 05:16 

Yes.   

Monarrez 05:18 

I just click slideshow again. 

Reed 05:21 

If you hit share at the bottom of your screen. 

Monarrez 05:36 

I’m sorry, y’all. I thought I had already shared this. Okay. My bad. Cuz you’re gonna reshare it. Okay. 

Reed 05:55 

All right. There we go. 

Monarrez 05:57 

Okay. Okay, going back to full screen. Give me a second. You see it? 

Reed 06:04 

Yes. You just need to do fullscreen. Oh, no, it’s gone. 

Monarrez 06:11 

It’s gone?  

Reed 06:12 

Yes.  

Monarrez 06:13 

It’s going when I go to full screen. Wow. So I guess I’m just not going to go fullscreen. 

Reed 06:22 

Yeah, I think I think that’s fine. 

Monarrez 06:26 

That’s annoying. Okay, so now I’m going to reshare again. That Okay, everyone. 

Reed 06:44 

Yes.  

Monarrez 06:45 

Okay. Yeah, I don’t use PowerPoint. Usually, I use latex anyway. So history is really important when we’re talking about this stuff. This country began with slavery with an economic system of slavery based on race, based on the color of your skin. When that system ended, that was replaced by a, you know, system of systematic racially explicit discrimination, both by government and by private entities. It was the birth of segregation as we know it today, because it was, you know, the episodes that brought the great migration, the proliferation of the black and brown population, across cities in the US, the hlcs, famous redlining maps that we hear so much about today, restrictive covenants prohibiting brown people from moving into certain neighborhoods, and, of course, a lot of racial violence, high of the most horrible kind that you can think of, in the 1970s 50s. You have a civil rights movement that brought a reform, right, a set of reforms and segregation began to decline. A lot of that school segregation decline was due to the supreme court orders and Supreme Court decisions that spurred school desegregation. However, in the 1980s and 90s, there was this reversal, right? The government completely retreated from its integration efforts. And well, not perhaps not completely, but almost completely. And the Supreme Court decisions have really, in the recent years altered the basis of these desegregation policies, such that nowadays, if one wants to bring forth a case of civil rights violations in terms of school segregation, one needs to prove the existence of explicit racial discrimination. And it’s sort of the birth of this veiled racial discrimination where we all know it’s about race, but race isn’t actually mentioned. Right. So all of that is to say that segregation is still with us today. So here’s a little bit of data on that showing you from 1995 to 2015, how the average sort of composition of classmates has changed over time, right. And the key thing that I want you to get from this picture is that even though when we talk about segregation, things are always you know, about, you know, underserved by Black students are black and Hispanic students and margin other marginalized populations. What we see in this graph is this big blue bar. Is that sort of the most racially isolated group in the country. It’s not black students. It’s not Hispanic students, it’s white students. Okay, so 80, more than 80% of white students, classmates in 1995 were white themselves. And that has only dropped to about maybe 75 73% by 2015. Right? If you compare that to the isolation of black students, which is this white, sorry, this yellow bar right here, that has stayed around the same size over time, Hispanic students are around the same level of isolation, maybe increasing slightly, right. But this whole story of segregation today really is a story about sort of white students kind of like hiding themselves in some ways in districts that are more wider than a disproportionately white than the city schools that are disproportionately wide relative to the district. And that’s what I want to talk about really quickly right now. So what perpetuates segregation today, individual choices. Yes. And I think that’s the thing that Nicole Hannah Jones was very right about to bring up last time. But I would argue that for too long, that has been sort of the only focus choices, right? And people vote with their feet wide flied people will leave if you try to integrate them. I’m not saying those forces aren’t the case and that they are very strong they are, you know, we know, whitefly took place in the 1970s. We know families keep schools in mind when they look for housing. And we know that unfortunately, you know, racial and socio-economic composition of schools is sort of taken as a proxy of school quality, right? That’s kind of like the best way to dress that correlation. It could just be racism, but I individual choices really matter in this space. I’m not saying they don’t. But institutions and policies do as well. And that’s the thing that I think gets overlooked a lot. And even now, when we talk about redlining, it’s like, oh, it’s in the 1930s. So long ago, it’s not right. So what I’m about to show you really fast here in the next four minutes, is that there’s a lot of institutions in place right now, policies in place right now that set the rules, so that so that segregation is the most natural thing that could happen, right. And I argue that the role of institution and policy should be to do the opposite. So that the default, the most natural thing that could happen if you just let things sort of take place would be integration, not segregation. Right. So how do we think about that? Let me show you a few maps here. So here’s a map of Detroit. And there’s two districts in Detroit. This is in the metro area of Detroit, you know, dense, densely populated area. And you have two districts, two cities, actually, Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park. And what I’m showing you here is just the racial composition of census blocks nearby, the boundary between these two cities, and your eyes can probably immediately tell you that there’s a vast difference between these two cities, and they’re right next door to each other. There isn’t a river, there isn’t a highway, there isn’t anything dividing these two places except for politics, and some streets, right. And so my sort of claim here is why do we have this type of technology? I call this as an economist, I will call this a technology this line enables sorting above and beyond what would be possible in this little corner of Detroit. Right. And so my question is, why are we willing to maintain these types of policies in place, this is between districts segregation, so we have two different governments that form their schools that decide curriculum, deciding things on each side of the line, right. But that doesn’t just happen between districts, though, within districts segregation is also severe. Here’s an example from Atlanta public schools. On the right-hand side, I’m showing you these two maps to school attendance boundaries, one for john lewis elementary school. And the other one is for Ashford elementary school. And it’s just very clear again, right of you this gradient in the color, it tells you that percent black or Hispanic in the census block, it’s very clear that this line is sort of hugging this racial line is sort of reinforcing segregation, above and beyond what you would think if people just attended their nearest school or something simple like that, right. And on the left-hand side, you see a graph that if you were to sort of walk to that border, and cross it, you would see just how that racial composition just jumps. Right. And that’s one way that we’re using to measure where are all these problems, right? And you might say, Well, yeah, these are some crazy examples that you found after sort of really sort of sifting through the data and cooking the data. And I’m telling you that that is not really the case. These boundaries or unequal boundaries are very common in the US. is extremely common to common. So here I’m showing you nine examples of between district lines that are really egregious in terms of their, you know, racial compositional jumps and racial inequality sort of generated by them in New York and Rhode Island and California and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, Michigan, Massachusetts. It’s everywhere. So my question for the group, you know, here are some resources kind of related to how we’re thinking about this problem. But my question is sort of my way to try to start start the discussion is why not set policy in a way that it doesn’t reinforce these patterns that already exist, and instead sort of tries to, you know, tell things in the better direction. Thank you. 

Reed 14:51 

Alright, thank you so much for that incisive presentation. If you haven’t been in the Urban Institute website, they have a really awesome tool where you can actually type in your school and see how the demographics have shifted over the past 30 years, which is actually a good segue to a poll, but I would introduce before we go into our panel discussion, can we put the poll up? Okay, I don’t see it. But I can only assume that you as the viewer can see it. And the poll asks, would you describe the schools that you or your children attend or attended as diverse or segregated, and we’ll leave it up to you to define what those terms mean, for yourself, if you can also use your your local school, that you may be near if you don’t have children, or even attend school, in this area, in the area where you live now. So I guess, let that go for a minute. We’re hearing from audience members, we don’t see the poll yet. Just a second. Barring that, you can use the chat function to respond to the poll, would you describe the school near you the schools you attended, or the schools, your children or other folks in your life attended as diverse or segregated? We can see your comments coming in. So we’ll let that go. But in the meantime, let’s turn to our panel. This is a question for everyone. As we go forward, I’m going to maybe pitch the question to one of you and then the rest of you can jump in when you see fit. But first off, you know, how would you say in your experience that COVID has exacerbated or revealed old patterns in school inequality. 

Tadikonda 18:02 

I can start off, I think, particularly what I’ve observed is that the pandemic hasn’t created, it has created new things, but the most. The most impactful aspect of the pandemic in terms of inequality is highlighting already existing inequalities. So, and there are several examples of this. When we think about technology access for students, we’re in a generation and an era where technology is almost essential to be able to do anything related to schoolwork from an early age through high school and higher education. And so the pandemic really highlighted disparities in data access because everything transitioned to a virtual environment. Similarly, when we think about our students who rely on schools for food access, that was another aspect that was really highlighted and exacerbated by the pandemic, especially earlier on When we didn’t necessarily have measures to make sure that students continue to receive food access, despite shutdowns and despite schools closing down, just because our public health officials didn’t really know how to do that in a safe manner yet at the very start. So I definitely believe firmly that the pandemic has brought to light the issues of inequality that were already existing and definitely exacerbated them. And I think it’s an important reminder, a wake up call that there’s a lot of injustice and inequality in our schools. And this pandemic was just an opportunity for those injustices to come to the forefront of every single issue that we deal with. 

Palmer 19:48 

Afternoon, everyone did want to share with you that you’re in Durham, North Carolina with us, this moment in time, as an opportunity to address some of those. We have three initiatives in partnership with our local elected officials, as well as our nonprofit and civil society that have addressed connectivity and broadband issues. We’ve migrated as a district now, one to one, believe we were three to one prior to COVID-19. And more broadly, I think that it has shone a light on in disparities and a beacon, regardless of action of saying, We have to do something about this now, next year, 10 years from now, but now. So it has been a galvanizing element. 

Reed 20:47 

Tomas, do you have anything to add? Or I got another question for you? 

Monarrez 20:52 

No, no, I definitely agree. I mean, I think both what Matt and Ananya are saying right, like COVID just kind of brought everything into brighter contracts, contrast, all these inequities that are already in place, just became so much more obvious. And at the same time, it’s kind of a lot of people say that moment is behind us. But I’m glad to hear Matthew say like, we use this moment of crisis where everything wasn’t shocked to try to introduce some change that maybe otherwise, you know, some change for good that maybe otherwise it would have been harder to do. So glad to hear that is happening.  

Reed 21:29 

So Matthew, you are involved in school planning for a large public school system? How has the pandemic affected school planning, and in particular, addressing equity and the return to school? 

Palmer 21:45 

With a large topic there, they’re answering the second soundbite here, I think the reality is, is that we we do tend to think about things in binary fashion or in a uniform distribution. yes, no, or All right, I think we’re really understanding is that it’s very contextual. Certainly think about the grade span K through 12. Right. We’re also hearing stories of innovation that are emerging, particularly for middle and high school students. And so many examples are beginning to come out where our community in our school system are coming together to support innovative learning models. But broadly speaking, there does tend to be clustering and spatial patterning, I’d say to integrate demographic patterns as well. And in-person instruction versus virtual attendance, locally here was relatively 5050 at the elementary school level. But then within that we had two-thirds of one school return and 1/3 of the school returned. So it does have two friends that one could associate and I think we did see about a 70% virtual attendance preference as we get into the upper grades. So I can’t pay generalities there. But I do think there’s quite a bit that we as practitioners and researchers and advocacy advocates, we’ll be looking at. I can see Tomas already thinking through all the data that we’re going to be crunching and understanding and unpacking. But to his point as well, we’re still in it right now. 

Reed 23:27 

Ananya, you were at the student member of the school board in Montgomery County, Maryland, when you proposed a school boundary analysis that would look at patterns of segregation in the school system as a sort of precursor to redrawing school boundaries. Why? Why did you pursue that and how would you describe the reaction from community members about it? 

Tqdikonda 23:53 

Sure, so I began on the McHenry County School Board in August 2018. And prior to my arrival on the board, there had been several boundary decisions that took place that there was some controversy around but within the board and in the community, and one of the things that fellow students and I observed was that options when completing these boundary studies to facilitate school integration and increased diversity in schools were not pursued. And so students and other students and I were alarmed by this because we had grown up in a school system that prides itself on its diversity. Montgomery County, Maryland has three of the most diverse cities in the nation. And so and but yeah, we had all had experiences that didn’t necessarily amount to that just because our schools had so much de facto segregation. So as a result of that, because see, my role on the board was to represent the student interest. And so as a result of that advocacy and commitment from students who I worked with, and my own personal drive to address this issue of school segregation that we had learned was something that we were supposed to attack decades ago, I proposed an analysis that would essentially look at school boundaries from the perspective of student body diversity and school facility utilization. So really looking at where we have disparities in seats available at schools, and how we can reallocate students to ensure that we were also meeting our commitment to student body diversity. So one of the things that immediate responses from the community was that we would bus students across the county and have them have students sit on buses for hours, which it was quite scary to hear some of that, because it sounded very similar to all of the arguments that were made during the civil rights era against bringing black people into society and integrating society so that there was not division by race. And so in a district, again, prides itself on this diversity on this inclusion. It was some of the same individuals who outwardly expressed that commitment to diversity and inclusion that came forward and said they didn’t want their schools to have black and brown children or they didn’t want their schools to have poor children, or they didn’t want their children to go to school, out of school that was known to be for black and brown children are for poor children. So that was a and there was a lot of definitely a lot of community lash back after the proposal of the analysis. But I firmly believe that it was something that needed to be pursued, because we need a proactive approach to addressing de facto segregation. We can’t just wait for a time when it’s convenient to address the issue of segregation. We because the longer we wait to address the issue, the more generations of students we’re unjustly serving, by having separate and inherently unequal schools. 

Reed 27:00 

This is a question for you and on you, but I want to open it up to everyone else afterwards. But how would you say perceptions of schools might shape school segregation in a place like Miami county or in other places? 

Tadikonda 27:12 

Absolutely. So there are definitely perceptions of schools that are very tied to the racial demographic and socio-economic demographic of that schools. And that’s led several parents who they shared this when they came to advocate against the analysis to to state that they selectively bought a home near a school that is ranked higher. And so we know that, that these school ranking sites very much play into racial and socioeconomic lines for the preservation of certain institutions of power. So definitely the idea of school rankings especially in a, in an area like Montgomery county, where there are a lot of families who have high educational backgrounds and high wealth margins. A lot of parents will buy homes in order for their student to go to a particular school, which then reinstates the cycle of certain schools having more resources because these affluent parents buy homes and more expensive areas because a school is rated a certain way, and then they continue contributing to that school. And that school is able to continue growing, while other schools that don’t necessarily have as a fluid of a student demographic, don’t have that same resource in backing, because no matter how much the district can say they equitably fund all of our schools and fund with the lens of equity in mind. At the end of the day, a lot of the student experience is shaped by how the community can donate and facilitate activities for students that really shapes the student experience. And it also shapes which teachers want to go and teach were based on the difficulty of the student population. We also definitely see that student teachers who are more experienced have a tendency to lean towards these schools that are higher ranked. So it definitely reinforces the cyclical nature of inequity and injustice. 

Reed 29:16 

Any Anyone else? Any thoughts? 

Monarrez 29:20 

Yeah, I think that’s just really powerful. I totally, totally agree with anon. Yeah, I mean, in terms of the evidence that we have on these topics, there’s really good sort of research coming out sort of confirming, I guess, using quantitative methods and the sort that parents on average, at least from a paper I read in New York City don’t don’t value school effectiveness per se, right, they’re not looking for a better instruction, they’re looking, if anything, a statistical model will tell you that they pulled the composition of the student body to be a more important feature of the school than sort of instructional quality. And, you know, this is some important result. Because when there is a lot of discussion about sort of the potential benefits of increasing choice or that letting people go wherever they want, and or these, like free market forces in the public school system. The notion is that people are always just seeking a better education, just better instruction, right, and where I think the sort of consumption value, the sort of, you know, luxury value of having over being able to attend certain schools, and other others is really powerful. And I think, in a lot of these districts in the US, like Montgomery county, like DC, like New York City, like it’s these sort of really good public schools that are somehow fenced off, and you know, and the access is really kind of limited and sort of perserve for that wealthy faction of the population. And I wonder what others think about how we can sort of start cutting through that and how do we try to shift perceptions of schools is something that I think is really important to try to think about. 

Palmer 31:10 

I can share locally here in Durham that we serve currently, two-thirds of our counties, students. So roughly nearly 20,000 students here that attend either charter private rooms. It said that an incoming family in Durham Public Schools has 49 options. Durham public schools is incoming kindergarten or has 49 options, Durham public schools, only one of them. So, to Thomas’s point, nine years point, there is definitely a behavioral psychology and economic sort of pattern of what we see. And I would point to two things briefly, just just as that it’s important to think about the disparity between the perception of quality and the actual data, that’s something that we continue to highlight, or our local community. And I would also point out that, where we get that information from can vary, demographically and socioeconomically. So it’s important to be aware of where people get information, how they get information. And then lastly, I would also suggest, again, that that there is a peer factor associated with the decisions that we make. We’re looking around us to see what other people are doing. And that can be a reinforcement in any direction. Something we’ve done locally here in Durham is just a simple campaign like a yard sign program that says we are proud family Brogdon middles. And that’s a visual reinforcement of a value state. But it’s simple. So that’s just one example of what other schools here in Durham are doing. But there’s many more things that’s just a sliver of our campaign, I wouldn’t want to misrepresent the totality.  

Reed 32:57 

That’s a really interesting example. And we’ve talked a little bit about, you know, how the perceptions might shape decisions around schools. We talked a little bit about how the role of parents and their personal choices can shape segregation. But I’m curious if you all know any examples of times when parents have sort of reversed that trend, like are Is there a role for parents in helping to integrate schools or just go against the grain? 

Tadikonda 33:27 

Montgomery county, there’s definitely a strong parent community who intentionally speaks about how they chose to move into more diverse regions of the county so that their students could go to school in a more diverse environment. And I particularly know of quite a few white parents who have spoken about that. And I think that that’s really impactful and important because it should be common sense for students to want to go to school in a diverse environment, but as Tomas showed in his presentation, whites Students are the most racially isolated demographic right now. And, and there’s also a lot of conversation about what it means to move Black and Brown students from their communities to whites, predominantly white schools versus the other way around, and the undue social burden that that’s created if you try to move Black and Brown students, as opposed to bringing white students into predominantly minority schools. So I definitely think that those parent communities who talk about how they recognize the importance of diversity, the importance of diversity in their child’s education and upbringing, are helping push the needle. And sometimes I so much wish that they were as as much in volumes as the parents and community members who do just the opposite. 

Reed 34:53 

So you were the student school board member that helped to lead a conversation about diverse schools? Could you talk more about the role of students and the student perspective and these conversations? 

Tadikonda 35:06 

Absolutely. So I. So I can point to several instances throughout the process when students would come and testify. Several Black and Brown students who would come and testify at our board meetings, and would talk about how if they were from a school that was predominantly white, how isolating that experience was, and how difficult it was for them to focus on their education. And the time when they felt so racially isolated in their classroom environment. Students would often talk about how in schools where they were the only student of color sometimes or one of the few students of color, they would go into AP classes or honors classes, and always get asked by teachers, whether they actually were in the right classroom. So there was definitely a lot of emotionally charged, sharing on behalf of students, which I’m so grateful that they that students came forward and were willing to share that, because it shouldn’t be on them to have to come forward and share some experiences that hold a lot of trauma, honestly, just to convince policymakers and leaders that school integration is important and that these racially isolated school environments are not conducive to the best possible outcomes for all students. So that whole year when all of the conversations around school boundaries was was happening at its height, and even after my departure went between my departure and when the pandemic hit, when those conversations were also at their height, students were at the forefront. And they constantly shared that that diversity in their classrooms was what shaped their experiences in McHenry County Public Schools, if they went to a school that offered them that opportunity. So really grateful for the student voice. And I feel that it’s really driven the conversation, at least in Montgomery county, especially through the forums and the community engagement opportunities where students have showed up and said that that’s that school diversity is what they want for their educational experience. And, and students are the key stakeholders in our schools there, they should be the number one priority, their needs and their desires for their classroom experience should be the number one priority. So I’m grateful for their continued advocacy. 

Reed 37:22 

Matthew, you’re involved with a large school system, sort of like low carbon County, but that it’s big? And you have there have been actually some efforts to improve integration and dirt in public schools. Could you talk a little bit about that? And why why something that you feel or why or is how you talk to committee members about why people should value integrated schools. 

Palmer 37:45 

Thank you, then that’s a good segue. We’re very fortunate to have administrative and public, both elected as well as community-level focus on equity. We are also a growing community. We now tip past 300,000 residents at a county level and continue to grow well beyond that, especially with recent announcements through our local business community with Google and Apple. And so we’re going to continue to grow. And yet we have major problems today. We have schools that are adjacent to one another one is reduced lunch rates at 20% and the adjacent one with 99%. reduced lunch eligibility. So our integration efforts are both I would say both racial and cultural with respect to black, Asian, we are at 1% Latino at a district level. And so some of our efforts around integration have to do not only racially but also socially, economically with a free and reduced lunch eligibility. To that point, we’ve been looking at it through the three phase two Right growth, equity and access and access being a key question. We need to work as a community through tough questions like should all children have access to the same programmatic choices? Or should that be restricted by your home address? Those are big questions that we as a community, are really turning the corner. And as we sharpen, no pun intended, but as we sharpen our pencils, and really get into the business of taking steps towards operationalizing, the concepts and values of equity integration, our work lies ahead. And so we’ll be we’ve already completed phase one. And we’ll be going deeper throughout the course of this summer, both with our school choice program or magnet program, which currently has 42% of our students are in some iteration of a school choice program. And then the remaining 58% of students in neighborhood regional schools that vary with respect to their boundary sizes, some of our school boundaries, stretch 15 miles, we already had, at this point, much work to do, to bring around growth, equity and access those layers that we’re pursuing and jointly growing as a community with the objective and an equitable outcome and ensuring that access is distributed for all families. In the county, so much work ahead, we look forward to sharing that as we go. 

Reed 40:23 

Right? We’re going to transition to question and answers soon. So I’m gonna give my lap for a final question a pitch to Tomas first, and then open it up to everybody else. So one of the things that I often hear when talking about segregation in schools is that we can’t integrate schools until we integrate in neighborhoods. So I’m curious to know, what do we need to do to make our schools and our neighborhoods more integrated? Is it about housing? Is it about is it really just about the school? What are some things that you’ve seen that players are doing? 

Monarrez 40:54 

Yeah, thanks for that question. That’s a hard question. But I think this moment is kind of, we’re starting to realize at least in the research world, and we’re starting to hear a little bit sore from the Biden administration world, like HUD and Department of Education, but they’re really starting to realize that these two problems, you know, go hand in hand, right. And, and, and, and it’s seven. And when you read the history, when you read like the the Richard Rothstein book, you know, it tells you, sometimes schools were placed in a manner the way they were placed in the 1930s, to reinforce segregation, right, like the way that schools were placed, or sometimes housing policy was set up to make sure that school integration didn’t take place, like these things have always interacted with each other. And I think at the end of the day, you know, we have touched a lot on school boundaries today. Because they, you know, I know, a lot of the major school districts are kind of moving away from boundaries and into school choice and these types of things. But just any way of thinking that we can kind of split that link between, you know, housing segregation, and neighbor and school segregation is going to be important, like, thinking about my he’s talking about two adjacent schools that are so different, and they probably share a boundary, could we, I’ve always thought of these boundaries that are so unequal, right, and the housing values are so different. What would happen if you like six agd? If you turn that line that is like, you know, all white people on the top and all black people on the bottom? Why can that line be a big six ag that is grabbing people from both? Right? I think once we have sort of a sense that the quality of a public school within a district or Hey, that’s also a problem, right? Like in a city, that you’re not getting a completely different product by enrolling in school a on this side of the street versus school B and this other side of the street. I feel like that’s how we’re really going to get at both school and neighborhood segregation at the same time. That’d be exciting. But I think Ananya really, really kind of brought brings it home for me that it really does take a lot of this kind of like, like sort of work on the ground, right? And really talking to everybody that is involved, securing you know, these kind of like psychological nudges, and Matthews is talking about maybe, maybe one, a picket sign is small, right, but maybe a bunch of those things together, nudging people and having us have that sense of we’re all sharing this public good together is the way to go. Yeah.  

Reed 43:31 

All right. It is 3:17. Now, so I’d like to open it up to the audience for q&a. You can feel free to leave your question in the chat. I think we’ve got a couple already. So let me go in here. Let’s see. Let’s see. Here’s a question for Ananya in regards to parent choices in McHenry County. Our parents Willing to allow their students to travel further in order to attend a diverse school? 

Tadikonda 44:07 

Sure. So there’s definitely This is definitely one of the core arguments against integrating schools is that students, parents don’t want their students to be bused across the county. But the reality of the situation is there’s a lot of opportunity in adjacent schools to increase diversity. And I think this really touches on one of the points that we didn’t quite get to get to today. But that’s that. It all depends on the way you frame the question, especially when you talk about our communities of color. If you ask a parent, from a minority community who attends a school, that is less resourced, and predominantly black and brown, if they want their child to go on a bus for 10, more minutes, every morning and 10 more minutes back? Well, I think the natural response is to say no, because you don’t, you don’t want to put your child through that. And you don’t want to have to travel more if you want to get to the school. But if you flip that question a little bit or nuance it and actually reveal under the under the surface, what it means to go to a school 10 more minutes away. If it means functioning AC, if it means Mac books in the library, if it means teachers with years and years of more experience, then I’d be really curious to know how that response might change. And so I think this narrative of parents don’t want their children traveling more, all depends on the way you frame the question to them. If it means high-end, academic and personal growth outcomes, well, I can’t necessarily imagine a parent who wouldn’t want that for their kids. But the notion, especially for parents from more privileged backgrounds who can offer more support at home for their kids, is that they don’t want any degree of further inconvenience, to allow this progress to happen. So so when we really dissect it, though, and we help people understand that, that integrated schools aren’t just good for our students from historically marginalized backgrounds. They’re good for every single student in our schools. That’s what really can catalyze some hopeful, progressive change in the minds of these parents who don’t support integration in the name of not wanting to send their students further from home. 

Reed 46:40 

Got another question? This is from Paula. Is there research about disproportionate discipline during COVID? Ie truancy charges for knock on zoom school for Black and Brown students or other discipline? Because pre pandemic disproportionate discipline against students of color was rampant? 

Monarrez 47:06 

Not that I’m aware of No, but that sounds like a great idea for a research project. In general, yeah, I would like think this the whoever’s asking this question knows, like, we already had such large gaps in discipline rates between racial groups that, you know, it would be it wouldn’t be surprising to know that they persisted into the COVID and remote schooling days, but I haven’t seen anything specific on it. 

Reed 47:36 

Let’s see. One other, please feel free to drop a question in there. We have lots of statements. Maybe I’ll read some of those and get reactions. Let’s see. Marie. Miriam says we need all schools funded equitably. Progressive education models smaller class size, equity means districts that are needier. We give the schools more funding versus less historically. Let’s see what else we got here. See, here’s a question from Gwen. The issue will become how many students are allowed per teacher per classroom. How much space in the schools to accommodate more students looks like overcrowding will be a result. So good teachers are only assigned in certain areas. I believe this is a question about how you decide where to draw school boundaries and how much capacity is taken into consideration. I know that was a big concern of Montgomery county. Is that been a consideration in Durham as well? 

 Palmer 48:46 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I will say briefly, we have the unique privilege here in North Carolina not only to solve those problems, but also that our legislature has enacted grade level into teacher training. all caps and 18 students in kindergarten 16 in first grade 17. second third. So that makes planning. We don’t have enough time today to get into that. Just further complexified it I will say that briefly, we are theories in accordance with exactly that, that we’re looking at those classroom level ratios and then Ananya use the term earlier that I would look back up, which is attendance divided by capacity was utilization. Ideally, in a boundary, you’d have about 85 to 90% utilization. So that allows for the ebb and flow within the school year and natural growth to occur. We’re currently in a district level well over 100%. So no time today to cover it all. But the answer is yes. 

Reed 49:53 

Let’s see other comments. See, state grading systems can create the bias and misperceptions as well. That’s from Sara Lee. Ramona writes, school segregation increased as a result of white flight, we see the trend reversing as suburbanites are returning to the urban centers by gentrification. Today, urban schools are all but diminished given consolidations and school closures. As displacement occurs, segregation will shift to inner rings and charters will serve new urbanites as they have children. So again, whites are benefiting off the backs of poor, disenfranchised students. We’ve talked a little bit about, I think, school choices in more of a suburban context. But I’m curious. You know, What do y’all see in terms of sort of revitalization of urban areas? And how that might impact our school demographics? And is it a potential for integrated schools as more affluent members return to cities? Or is it just going to repeat old patterns? 

Monarrez 51:00 

I think it presents an opportunity for sure. I, I’ve done a little bit of research on the impact that charter schools have had on segregation, both in urban and suburban districts. And we are generally finding just not very exciting things, right. Like, segregation is going up a little bit because of the charter movement. And charters are very specialized. And I think that’s kind of one of these fundamental trade offs that are difficult to deal with, when thinking about integration that if you have a school, a charter school that say, opens in some gentrifying neighborhood and in DC or New York or something like that, it’s typically going to be geared either a towards serving historically marginalized groups, right, and just serving them right, and getting them to college and just high expectations or whatever, or is going to be something specialized. And, you know, kind of more catered towards like that suburban and 10 predominantly white type of type of communities, right. So I think if charter schools or all these different models are popping up, like centralized choice and things that are happening, these gentrifying cities, if those are designed with integration in mind, pursuing integration, I think they could achieve it, or at least they won’t worsen it. Hopefully, they could achieve it. I can’t say that what the evidence, but if they’re not, is what Ananya and Matthew have been saying is like a, you just leave it on its own de facto and wait for things to sort of fix themselves, because we’re all going to become better. It’s not going going to happen, right? You need to set up the rules of the game so that equity is more naturally the result that will happen than otherwise. 

Reed 52:47 

Got a good question from Karen. So in the podcast, the promise season two, one of the folks being interviewed on the issue of school segregation says, quote, If Black people could do something about the way America is and the way things are, the way things are being done in schools and in relation segregated schools, it would be done. Evidently, school segregation is a white issue. Do you all agree or disagree with that statement? 

Monarrez 53:22 

I guess I will keep talking. I think I agree. I think on my beginning my presentation, that’s why I chose to sort of highlight this statistic that white students are the most racially isolated. I think, white folks are the ones that fight back against these things. We do have a small sort of maybe not small, but a growing faction and sort of the progressive movement among folks of color that are saying, You know what, I don’t need integration. My parents are traumatized from integration. But I think it’s because they have it’s, it’s it’s kind of the way you frame the question. Like what like has been said, like, if you frame it in a different way, we’re not saying, hey, let’s try that crazy thing from the 70s. Again, right? It’s, it’s more about let’s make public schools actually for everyone and equal enough within program duration so that there isn’t all this natural quality happening. 

Palmer 54:21 

Yeah, I’d like to dovetail off of Tomas’s point and pick up on Ananya’s point earlier, which is that we must have at a district level standards. It can’t be that one school afford to certain learning environment condition, and then another as a wholly different experience. There’s an importance to saying, what do we as a community value in our schools and what must every school have? We’ll stop. And if we afford that, I think we’re bringing a great deal to the table. I can’t speak directly to, to all of I think we’re so much time today. I will say in term, one of the prevailing challenges, and I think this Western masters point as well as that, in the last two years, we’ve lost a number of African American middle-class families that have opted out of the school system for alternative choice. And so it may be good to look at these things. And like, they’re very dynamic right now than ever right now. And I think the models we’re all working through and trying to lead through the living experiment to a certain degree, this is an precedented time, maybe a moment of opportunity. 

Reed 55:37 

We’ve got one minute left. So before we close out, I want to thank everyone for being here. Does anyone want to make any closing remarks? No, no? No user? 

Tadikonda 55:57 

Did you want to go first? 

Palmer 56:00 

I will defer to you. Please. Go ahead, though. 

Tadikonda 56:04 

Sure, definitely. So I just wanted to share that I think it’s really important from being on the front lines of doing this work on a school board. In the policy space, I think what I’ve recognized is the magnitude of impact community organization and advocates can have, at the end of the day, the public bodies that make decisions are driven by community members who come and advocate because they are elected officials. So when they see that there’s a synthesis of community support for a certain idea, they’re more likely to push forward the needle on that specific issue. And what’s happened and what my observation has been, as the people who are sometimes an often in the minority, who are against this progress and change are sometimes the loudest voices, which can really skew the perspectives of these elected officials in terms of what they believe is the community consensus on a specific issue. So I really like to advocate to you all who are here today, if this is something that you care deeply about, and that you would like to be a part of the future of our generations and generations of children in this country. Please, please advocate to your local school boards. They are the ones who make the decisions on these issues and they listen to the people who come forward to them. And that’s what shapes their decisions. So thank you so much for having me on this panel today and looking forward to staying connected with advocates like you. All right.  

Reed 57:35 

Thanks, everybody. Thanks for being here. And I guess that’s it, I hope. I hope y’all have an excellent day. 

There are many key issues that connect fair housing and tenant advocates to environmental and health justice such as lead exposure, Superfund sites, asthma risks, substandard conditions, and natural disaster preparedness. Panelists set the context by describing the relationship of racial segregation and discriminatory land use practices to environmental exposures, in particular focusing on the risks faced by people in subsidized housing. We will address these specific issues of concern, with an eye toward both building capacity for community-based advocacy and identifying needed federal reforms.

We also highlighted key findings from a recent Shriver Center and Earthjustice report on the proximity of Superfund sites and other toxic sites to federally assisted housing, which included recommendations on how to maximize tenant involvement in the future of their housing, and surrounding community.

We also draw upon our advocacy work to improve housing conditions within subsidized housing programs and point to the need for improved agency oversight and enforcement. Agencies, in particular federal agencies, have an obligation to ensure subsidized properties meet physical condition standards. However, agency oversight and enforcement practices are often uneven and slow to bring troubled properties back into compliance.

The panel focused on lifting up local case studies and model solutions to these problems, including community engagement, litigation strategies and public policy change. Because we are on the cusp of a new administration, we also paid particular attention to needed reforms at the federal level that are of interest to both housing and environmental justice advocates.

Speakers:

• Megan Haberle, Senior Policy counsel, NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund
• Emily Coffey, Housing Attorney at the Shriver Center on Poverty Law
• Debbie Shezewer, Managing Attorney of Earth justices Midwest Office in Chicago.
• Bridgett Simmons, Staff Attorney with the National Housing Law Project

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Haberle, 00:12

So welcome everyone to our panel and conducting environmental justice and housing justice, this panel will focus specifically on the needs of subsidized households, which is to say, people who are living within a range of different federally subsidized housing programs, and who as we’ll discuss are subject to range of environmental pressures, environmental burdens within their neighborhoods and communities and also within the developments and units that they live in. So we’ll be touching on that whole range of different issues. And approaching these advocacy needs, both from the perspective of environmental advocacy and housing advocacy. And so with that said, I’ll turn it over to folks to briefly introduce themselves. And we’ll be quick about this and say no full BIOS are in the conference materials, which I’d encourage everyone to take a look at. Since we have really an extraordinary group of panelists here today. Emily, do you wanna start?

Coffey, 01:12

Sure, thanks, Megan. My name is Emily Coffey, and I’m a housing attorney at the Shriver center on poverty law. And I’ll turn it over to Debbie.

Chizewer, 01:18

Hi, everyone. I’m Debbie Chizewer, where I’m the managing attorney of Earth justices Midwest office in Chicago.

Simmons, 01:28

Hi, everyone. I’m Brigitte Simmons, a staff attorney with the National Housing Law Project.

Haberle, 01:34

And I should have said, I’m Meghan Haberle. I’m a Senior Policy counsel at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. And so that that said, we’ll get started in the substantive component of presentation. So go ahead and share my screen here. So as I said, this, this panel focus on the needs of subsidized households and the need for a joint advocacy strategy that’s addressing both housing justice and environmental justice. And this is a community based advocacy strategy, but one that also highlights a number of federal policy responses and policy needs at EPA, and also at HUD, as well as other federal agencies that touch upon these issues. And so my first set of pictures here are from an area in California, where I was working a couple of years ago, and it was my work on the ground there. And that really drove home to me the way that these issues are so connected. And so this is out in the Bay Area. This is the East Bay. And it’s an area where a large economic driver traditionally has been in the oil refinery industry. And so as as I was driving around and touring this community, speaking of community members speaking with public housing residents, it was strikingly clear to me just how much environmental exposure many of these communities were facing. And I felt that even many of the people that were running public housing programs out in this area, and we’re really very hard pressed to be able to provide these residents with avenues to a healthier life. And both because of issues within the housing policy realm. And then also long standing issues of land use discrimination, and environmental enforcement. And so this was just an incredibly visually striking experience to see these smokestacks, these oil refineries and then the public housing and areas where people were living Very close to these environmental burdens. And so I’d like to start off this presentation with that visual, which I personally found so compelling and striking. So as I said, there are a confluence of systemic issues that are creating these kinds of land use patterns and this kind of environmental exposure. And so we’ll see discrimination really across the gamut of these different policy areas, leading to contamination of a variety of exposures, various toxins, we say it’s an exposure to bad air quality from highway siting and other sources, and of course, increasingly a matter of attention as climate and weather effects, which heightened news other kinds of health problems such as asthma, and just reactions to these toxins that we see in the air and other aspects of our environment. And also, transportation policies and investments have been a huge driver of health burdens for many underserved communities. And this is a big legacy of Landis’ policy and infrastructure spending in our country, and has often resulted in displacement housing insecurity, and also exposure to all the harms that can come with traffic truck routes, freight routes, many of which pass right by underserved communities. And so we see the cumulative impacts of all of these health burdens, there really tend to concentrate geographically in areas that have been politically disempowered, where we’ve seen these various streams of discrimination come together within the same geography. And then at the same time, on the housing side, we also see these long standing legacy issues of discrimination stemming from discrimination within our public policy is, and it’s extended over the years and continues today to form the architecture of segregation in our country. So this is to say that we’ve created an housing structure within our country, where certain racial groups and people in certain socio economic classes are trapped in those same areas where we’re seeing all of that other kind of land use discrimination, and enable tax exercise, Housing Choice. And then we’re also seeing continuing discrimination, disinvestment and harms placed on those communities where people are living. And so on the housing side of things. And you know, there are a number of different policy areas that are contributing to these effects, and long standing regulatory and legislative issues that have shaped where that housing is located. And the fact that it’s often so close to the to environmental burdens. And we’ve also seen different generations, and attempts to sort of address where that housing is located and the sufficiency of that housing, such as hope, six demolition, demolition and replacement. But we’ve seen the fact that those patterns of segregation have really continued over the years and have never effectively been disrupted. And so we have site selection policies that continue to contribute to those. There are also issues of Public Housing Administration voucher administration, and the way that

the low income housing tax credit subsidy program is designed so that people have continued to be channeled into areas that lacks sufficient environmental protections. And so this is coming back to the same area in California where I showed the picture of the smokestacks. And this is a demographic map, this is one of the famous head if if VHD, to tool maps. And you can see here, the little red that represent white people and the the dots that are purple, and that sort of bluish green color, are predominantly black and Latino communities. And so you can really see that they’re still even in the area where you have also a lot of displacement and gentrification, very persisting, and segregation, which also sort of layers on into income concentration, and then layers on to where environmental burdens are located, as well as access to green space, which is something that’s very, you know, predominant, I think, in this particular map. And there are set of legal frameworks that advocate have attempted to use to address these problems. And all of us have been sort of, you know, imperfect and less than optimal for various reasons and continue to be the locus of various policy pushes. And so we have environmental lives that offer sort of general environmental protections, and there really aren’t tailored to address those cumulative harms the vulnerable communities tend to face. We have title six of the Civil Rights Act that prohibits discrimination in federally funded programs, unfortunately, disparate impact discrimination, and although it’s included in agency regulations is not privately enforceable. And so title six has sort of been at the mercy of, you know, lack of federal oversight and prioritization when it comes to its enforcement. And there’s also an executive order on environmental justice. The data as well as not privately enforceable, and hasn’t really been taken as seriously by many agencies as it could have been in the past. And then we have the Fair Housing Act, which is privately enforceable, but doesn’t squarely address many of these environmental justice issues. And so, some advocates have attempted to use the Fair Housing Act to get a discriminatory municipal services with varying degrees of success, because again, there hasn’t been all that much agency leadership and that kind of interpretation of the Fair Housing Act. And they’re also planning processes and front end reviews that are required by a number of agency is an embedded number of planning processes. And so that provides a good mechanism for protection. But again, it tends to be very subject to discretion on the part of the agency, and how seriously that’s actually being executed. And, and so we’ve also seen a number of lawsuits that have been brought over the years using the Fair Housing Act and other legal tools to try to get at the segregation element of A Public Housing Administration. And actually, many of those cases, and that resulted in the creation of mobility programs and sort of desegregation remedy is also included as part of their claims descriptions of these, you know, extremely Stark neighborhood environmental disparities and maintenance issues within the public housing itself, that black and brown residents were disproportionately facing was the part of the discriminant discriminatory administration of those programs. And so there are a number of results and remedies that came out of those lawsuits over the years. And we’re trying to get at this problem of discrimination within the administration of our public housing system and other areas of public housing. And they resulted in a number of really promising fixes to those programs, many of which were geared towards less discriminatory administration, as well as broader Housing Choice. And but another thing that we saw following those lawsuits is that segregation is very persistent and very adaptive. And so even as you’re able to sort of go after one piece of the problem, you know, you’ll consider, you’ll still see other issues within the housing market, and elsewhere, that continue to drive segregation and discrimination, pointing to the new to a more holistic fix across the board. And EPA, as well. And it has been a site of difficulty, I would say, for advocates to really push for robust environmental oversight and enforcement, for residents of subsidized housing, as well as other residents of low income community ism neighborhoods. And so there’s a continuing push towards EPA and to take its its civil rights responsibilities more seriously, and really be a better actor when it comes to this more mobile populations.And I’ll highlight on a very high level, a few emerging issues before turning it over to the other panelists. And so one is public housing, capital funding and redevelopment. And there’s a big policy push now, to bring in increased capital funding to public housing, which is very underfunded, I mean, we’re seeing very dire habitability problems, maintenance problems, as well as an overall shortage of units. And for people who who qualify and who are very rent burdened and need additional housing assistance. And so there may be, you know, an influx of capital funding, we hope to see, which will also lead to redevelopment of a lot of our public housing system, and in order to go forth in and carry out those capital repairs. And and so this, of course, leads to number of questions that touch on both segregation and environmental justice, and what happens in a situation where you have legacy existing public housing, and next to it environmentally toxic site. How do you sort of embark on that redevelopment in a responsible way. And so some of our panelists will be touching on that type of scenario and the policy fixes that we need to put in place, especially as we embark in an expansion of those kinds of programs. And we’re also seeing other kinds of subsidy expansions expand possible expansions of the Housing Trust Fund and the voucher program, which advocates are very excited about. And though it also emphasizes the need not to reinforce those patterns of segregation as we go about doing that, and additional infrastructure spending, like spending on transportation. And again, really driving home the need not to sort of dig deeper into the problems of the past with the way that infrastructure has been spent and the way that it has burden and not always benefited low income communities, including in its health impacts, and of course, increased Attention to climate change response, the need to provide for weatherization resources and the need for better locational planning and flood protections for many communities. And then also, I think that there’s a policy push for cross cutting civil rights priorities and regulations, such as increasing resources for enforcement across agency is an include including civil rights and planning processes that federal recipients are required to undertake. And as with the Affirmatively Furthering fair housing rule, so all of these present opportunity is where, you know, policy advocacy, addressing these issues can potentially be pushed. And with that said, I’ll turn it over to my, my fellow panelists to discuss some of these issues in more detail. So Debbie, Debbie, and Emily, if we were starting with you, and let me set up your slides here.

Coffey, 14:22

Great. Thanks so much, Megan. So, you know, Debbie, and my portion of this presentation is really going to focus on a report that we recently co authored called poisoner combs the fight for environmental justice and federally assisted housing. And this report was initiated as a as a result of our work together, bring the residents of Chicago, Indiana, which is where really our report story began. So I want to give a little bit of background and what happened in Chicago, and how that plays out in public and other federal forms of federally assisted housing across the country. So in a Chicago, which is it located in Northwest Indiana, a century of development in the steel, petroleum and railroad industries left a legacy of pollution in the community, the community is being cleaned up now, under the Superfund law, which is designed to be to address some of the most contaminated waste sites for the nation. You can move on to the third slide. Thank you. Just some background on West Calumet, the housing complex was was built on the footprint of a lead smelter in the early 1970s. And for decades, residents lived at the complex with no idea that their homes had been built on toxic land. They learned for the first time in the summer of 2016, that the soil was contaminated with lead and arsenic levels that were so high that for example, the lead contamination was over to 225 times but the EPA considered necessary for cleanup. So really serious and dangerous levels of contamination. On city officials, the Housing Authority, HUD, EPA, and other federal and local agencies had known for years and decades even that 1000s of families had lived at the complex and been chronically exposed to lead and arsenic, and that the lead poisoning rates were really astronomical. But instead of protecting residents from the health hazards, officials continuously invested Federal Housing dollars into building and maintaining the low income housing and continue to invite residents to live there without knowledge of the levels of contamination that they were moving to. In fact, there was a study by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry all the way back in 1998. That found that 30% of the children at West Calumet were led poisoned under those 1998 standards. But still, no one told the residents they didn’t alert the families to this to this problem. And between 2005 and 2015 child who is living at West Calumet was three times more likely to have elevated blood lead levels than another child living elsewhere and within the city of Chicago. But it took until 2009 for the Calumet neighborhood to be listed under the Superfund program. And it took until 2016 for the residents to even find out that this was happening. And when residents did find out it was through a letter from the mayor in the summer of 2016. essentially saying that the the homes were severely contaminated and that residents were going to have between 60 and 90 days to relocate. The next slide, please. So when we became engaged in this in this fight, the community was demanding answers. And they were wondering, you know, why are we just now becoming aware of this? Is it safe to continue to live there even if only for a couple more months? Why hasn’t the Housing Authority prepared a comprehensive relocation strategy to actually allow for residents to move on in a timely way. And what tenants wanted was options they wanted support, and at the request of a collective of current and former residents and community or organizations as Shriver center filed a housing discrimination complaint with HUDs Office of Fair Housing and equal opportunity, alleging that the housing Authority’s decision to build public housing on the footprint of a lead smelter, violated residents civil rights, and that the ways in which they were going about relocation, failed to affirmatively further fair housing and otherwise comply with civil rights laws. So I’m not going to go into too much detail about what what resulted through the complaint we did ultimately settle. And through the settlement there should have there were comprehensive relocation benefits provided to residents, additional time and support to move rent abatement for the for the period of time that residents were still living at this contaminated complex. And residents when they were moving, were to receive let it better lead inspections and the Housing Choice Voucher Program than they otherwise otherwise would have received. So at request, I can share any of those documents and they are available on our website. But I’m going to turn it over now to Debbie on to talk a little bit about the super fund advocacy and environmental advocacy that was going on simultaneously.

Chizewer, 19:45

Thank you so much, Emily. And before I jumped in, I just want to say when we learned about these events in East Chicago in 2016, and visited residents who had been living on the site for some of them for decades, I was just horrified and scared for the residents. We entered the situation by attending a very chaotic meeting with lots of different agency officials in a room packed with residents who were completely shocked to learn about the levels of contamination in their homes. And the more we looked into it, the more we realized how many different agencies had dropped the ball. As Emily mentioned, Shriver center was approached by residents living in public housing. There were also residents living in private housing both as section eight, with section eight vouchers and then as owners of the private housing. And what we learned pretty quickly was that 500 homes had been left out of a cleanup plan that had been agreed to by the responsible parties or polluters at the site, and that the community had not been adequately told about the problems. Most of the notices to the public were very bland, they did not explain the extent of contamination. And there had been a health report by the public agency called the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, that actually said that there was no risk to human health from exposure to the air or the soil, which is just not true. So we saw lots of opportunities through litigation, advocacy and communication strategies designed to pressure EPA into doing more to protect the residents. You know, when you approach the get involved in Superfund sites, the ideal way to do that is to get involved early. And really the Superfund program is theoretically designed to engage residents early, but that doesn’t happen. And so I want to take a minute now to step back and talk about the Superfund process. So you can follow this discussion. As you can see on this chart, first of all, this is an EPA chart. So when it says community engagement, we want to hear from you that is aspirational. And that doesn’t always happen. But the chart does show the steps in the process. So when there’s a contaminated site, it will be in it’s brought to EPA as attention, it will be evaluated to see if it meets criteria to be listed on what’s called the national priorities list, which is a list of the most contaminated sites that will be cleaned up. And then EPA will undertake what’s called a remedial investigation and to understand the nature and extent of contamination, as well as the risks at the site and all and then as you can see here, there will be a study of possible options, a proposed plan, and then a record of decision. And what there are some important things I want to mention one is that the community should absolutely be involved at every step. And in particular at this step of assessing the risks to the community and because only if you understand how residents interacted a site, can you properly clean up the site, but when we got to the community they had not been involved. At a very deep level at all, there weren’t tools in place to really ask for their input about what should happen at the site. And so we used a variety of methods to try to push EPA to get involved in the site. First we saw, we decided to file a motion to intervene so that residents could have their voices heard in this process. The Superfund law does provide for that opportunity explicitly in the statute, but residents have never been able to use it successfully. So we filed a motion to intervene to try to lift up their voices, and was during the course of that pending motion. We also used advocacy to pressure EPA and calm strategies, communication strategies to do this. And as a result, we were able to get EPA to add the 500 sites that I mentioned earlier 500 homes that have been left out of the plan to undertake indoor dusts testing, sampling and remediation, and also to consider whether the drinking water was safe and ultimately learned that it wasn’t and EPA, and that the reason it wasn’t safe was because of lead pipe issues as opposed to the soil contamination. But this relates back to Megan’s point, which is often communities. Black Latino communities in areas that are highly industrialized, are exposed to a variety of exposures to lead and other contaminants. And so here, the drinking water is contaminated due to aging lead service lines, but they were also being exposed to lead in their soil and in the dust in their homes. And so we were able to get drinking water sampling, and then the replacement of many lead service lines. We also help the community form a community advisory group, which plays an official role on a Superfund site as a liaison to EPA from the community and also as a conduit of information from EPA to community members. And then we were able to prepare written comments in conjunction with the residents on decisions that were still being developed. So even though the process was pretty far along, we were able to influence other steps that were still happening. And I want to pause for a second and say that, in this process, we realized even though we were coordinating very closely with the Shriver center and our other allies at the unit, at a loyal who’s working on health issues, and other allies, that we could see how often the issues could be siloed, the housing issues could be treated separately from the environmental issues. And as Megan said earlier, it was so compelling that at this juncture that we needed to do more than just even attending that first meeting, we saw that there was a disconnect between the housing and environmental issues. The comments that we prepared, together with the Shriver center and with community members and leaders on a project proposed demolition of the public housing really brought all of that together, and really helped us realize that we need each other to do this work well. And what we did in that process was develop comments on HUDs environmental review of the demolition of the public housing at the Superfund site. And even though everyone was watching, HUD did not notify the residents stakeholders about this draft environmental assessment. Luckily, we were able to we found it and were able to seek an extension of the comment period and public health and public hearing. And it was really important because this wasn’t just an ordinary plan for demolition. This is a plan that was dangerous, it would have exposed residents to contaminated groundwater and would have uncovered 12 feet of severely contaminated soil without a plan to take it away. It also would have resulted in significant dust emissions that have contaminated dusts. So we were able to work together to seek deeper environmental review of impacts and change plan. Although we did not get a deeper review, we were able to get the plan changed so that it reduced the risk to the residents. So I think the most important thing that we’ve said so far is that we really need to work together across housing and environmental expertise to be able to identify the places where we can help residents influence the process. And with that said, I’m going to turn it over to Emily to talk about what how we took what we learned from this process and and took next steps to try to make change.

Coffey, 29:03

Thanks, Debbie. So next slide. on just about two months ago, HUD HUDs, Office of Inspector General came out with a report on called contaminated sites pose potential risks to residents at HUD funded properties. And the report largely focused on all of the missteps that happens in East Chicago, but it also really presents a call to action for, for agencies, for advocates, and for communities across the country that are dealing with environmental contamination, to really take a harder look at these these issues, to prevent another a Chicago from happening in another community. And so this is the on the screen, you’ll see something that is pulled from the the O YG. report that really just outlines the many different years that went by where HUD failed to, to do anything about the contamination that they had been notified of where there are all of these times where agencies should have acted where residents should have been alerted that their homes were severely contaminated. And that did not happen. And you know, when you see this, this many chances across across so many different years for for HUD to do something for somebody to do something, it really makes you question, you know, where else is this happening? What else is either slipping through the cracks or where there are inadequate policies and procedures in place to adequately deal with contaminated sites. And what the OIG report really shows is that there’s 1000s of these sites around the country that HUD has failed to investigate, to ensure that it’s safe for families to live there. Oh, he says this is caused by first the failure of environmental review oversight, second, inadequate communications between federal and local agencies, and third HUDs failure to research and review sites even where they are notified of that contamination. And I would really add to this this list that, you know, HUD has an obligation to be investigating sites that they oversee. That’s a statutory obligation that they have, they need to make sure that it is safe for residents to live where, where they’re subsidizing residents to live. And they have an independent obligation to ensure this level of safety. And you know, immediately after West Calumet, me Chicago, we’re making national headlines on hot an EPA began to share some data with each other and look into where there were other public housing or HUD multifamily housing developments that were located close to Superfund sites. And EPA actually provided HUD with a list of nearly 7700 developments for HUD to review. And what the OIG report really says is that HUD chose to, to focus just in on seven sites, it doesn’t go into much detail about what exactly was done at those seven sites, what those seven sites are, what residents of those seven sites know, whether it’s actually safe, and it’s been cleaned up to quality standards. None of that is is discussed in the report. But you know, the stark difference between, you know, 7000 8000 sites, down to seven is is pretty alarming. And oh, he HUDs Office of Environmental energy actually said more recently that there’s around 2000 sites that they view as being at the most at risk. So we’ve been continuing this advocacy, we’re going to talk a little bit about a report that we recently released. Next slide again, um, and we did a little bit of our own mapping as part of that project. And so this is just the snapshot of where there is federally assisted housing within a quarter mile of a Superfund site. And the different colored dots are just different types of housing programs, low income housing, tax credits, public housing, rad developments, that you know, formerly public housing or you know, in process of converting Rural Development And you can find more of these, these maps on our website, which we’ll show in just a minute. Um, so next slide, actually, next two slides, and I think I’m going to turn it back over to Debbie to, to discuss our report.

Chizewer, 33:45

Thank you. And so this first slide, you’ll see the partners in our report. In addition to the Shriver center Earth justice, we partnered with the University of Chicago Law Schools, Abrams Environmental Law Clinic, as well as Columbia Law Schools health justice clinic, and our work was supported by the Joyce Foundation. And if you go to our website, you’ll be able to see more information both you access the report and see information of stories that have happened since then see more of the maps that Emily was talking about. Next slide, please. Then, as Emily has been building towards this report, really is was our way of taking that next step of how can we make sure that we’re supporting other communities around the country that are facing the same situations as a Chicago and some of the key takeaways in the report are may seem basic, but they also seem are but they also are critical to making change. So community engagement, making sure that communities have the opportunity to impact decision making. Also disclosure, it seems obvious that if you were moving into public housing, or into using a section eight voucher that you would learn if the home was on a contaminated site. But that’s just not the case. The laws vary dramatically from state to state. And so we should never assume that residents will learn about contamination. Also, tools for when residents are in these situations where they discover that they’re living in a contaminated area, having the opportunity to choose what they’d like to do, whether they’d like to relocate, whether they would like to have an area remediated or what steps they want, and, and being ready to advocate for those. And then lastly, ensuring that HUD or its private partners are undertaking the appropriate environmental reviews that are required by law, but now not implemented are often not done, or done appropriately. Looking for accountability there. Next slide, please. And I wanted to put this slide up. This is an environmental justice screen or ej screen that EPA has on its website, you can generate a report for any community that will give you a sense of the demographics and also the environmental exposures. So you’ll see on this list, the different types of air and other exposures, including led paint, and how those compared to the state. So how the particular selected area of comparison the state as well as the demographics. And that information can edit. Also, if you do ages go to eg screen, you can also look at public housing and different types of housing. And so that’s a really important tool that you can use to get a sense of what kind of risks are in the community. And then next slide, please. And then just it’s so important to look for opportunities to either partner with environmental lawyers or to find ways to comment on National Environmental Policy Act reviews, the environmental reviews we were talking about. They are triggered when there’s new construction for rebuilt, rehabilitation, redevelopment, or demolition. And there are some easy sort of low hanging fruit things that you can do to request the public hearing requests an extension of time so that you can engage environmental experts, technical experts to make sure that hot are the partners who are doing this, these reviews are really taking them seriously, and identifying issues and evaluating ways to minimize the risk to communities. And I just want to say one other thing that I haven’t we haven’t mentioned yet is that we are beyond this report. We’re looking for ways to influence the way HUD handles housing as it come with regard to external environmental threats. And so we partnered with the National Housing Law Project Earth justice partner with the National Housing Law Project to submit comments on the HUDs National inspection standard rulemaking and its inspire project to raise these issues call for more consideration of lead in the home and, and also other contaminants in in home. So we think there are a lot of opportunities to really make a difference at this intersection of environmental justice and housing justice. And I’m going to turn it back to Emily for one more second before we wrap our our point in case she has any concluding remarks on the section.

Coffey, 39:07

Nope. I am all done. So I think we’re just going to turn it over to Bridget for for her presentation. Thank you so much.

Simmons, 39:16

Hi everyone. And thank you so much to Megan, Debbie and Emily for those great presentations. Once again, I’m Bridget Samantha staff attorney with the National Housing Law Project and today I will be speaking to you about housing conditions and advocacy as an extension of environmental justice. Environmental Justice is characterized as valuing and welcoming all into the conversation about protecting the environment, and land use issues. Housing is obviously an aspect of environmental justice. technology advances how big Vance’s have expanded where we can live and how we live. However, some of those advances have resulted in unintended consequences of harms to the environment, as well as to our most vulnerable neighbors, mate neighbors. Natural Disasters have caused mass displacements of families from cities, or has caused families to take on additional housing debt. And obviously, these disasters have laid bare the need for resilient and energy efficient housing. But everyday task like industrial uses public infrastructure use, as well as keeping properties in good functioning order can spur serious public health concerns and harm to our communities. Unfortunately, most of our housing policies as discussed by my colleagues previously, our housing policies in response to environmental issues are reactive rather than proactive. Next slide. So when I use the term conditions, what am I referring to? So generally conditions refers to the traditional habitability concerns of a property, essentially the capital health of that property. Thinking about the building systems such as plumbing, electricity h fac, the roof the foundation? Are these various systems intact and are in good functioning order? also thinking about the land owners attention to the property? Is there an infestation property problem? How is the land owner addressing rotin issues? Does the property have clean air issues due to mold radon and other toxins? Does the property have a smoke free policy in place to reduce the exposure to secondhand smoke conditions also refers to the materials used to develop the property as well as the materials used to repair any defects at the property. So the materials thinking about what is behind the wall what is used for installation is the paint lead based paint. How is the property heated and cooled throughout the year, but types of materials used to develop and repair properties is a particular concern for older properties. Because we know previously these materials were characterized as safe to use and housing but now we know they are very dangerous to people’s health. In addition to the traditional habitability concerns, we also know that the past uses and current uses of surrounding land impacts family’s health and the conditions of properties, as described by Emily and Debbie. Previous uses of land can detrimentally impact family’s health, if the land is not properly cleaned, or the contaminant not properly contained. We also know that surrounding uses such as as I mentioned, industrial uses, proximity to highways, bus depots, ports, water treatment plants, land fields, other public infrastructure also can impact to the detriment of have a detrimental impact on families health. And we know that this disproportionately impacts families of color. And broadly speaking, we should be thinking about housing that is sustainable. And if those properties can endure the ever changing climate, one of the reverberating effects of redlining, restrictive covenants and other discriminatory housing practices. Is that many affordable housing properties are located in floodplains and other areas susceptible to severe weather. Megan spoke about this earlier, she alluded to this earlier. If these properties are not properly fortified or made resilient, the properties themselves will decay at a faster rate, potentially leaving families subject to displacement, mass displacement of families or making those families more housing burden. And next slide. So in this moment, I just want to pause and discuss why we should commit energy and effort into conditions advocacy. The current public health crisis has served as a reminder of the importance of having a place to live. Remaining house has allowed families to practice social distancing, to prevent the contracting or spreading of COVID-19. But these protections of a home are eroded if poor conditions are present. poor conditions such as mold, infestation defective plumbing, please residents physical and mental health at risk. conditions. advocacy is also an important element to preservation of the preservation of housing in particular affordable housing. Looking to the market to develop deeply affordable housing has proven to be an ineffective strategy. The National Low Income Housing code coalition estimates there is a shortage of 6.8 million million rental homes available and affordable for extremely low income renters. For the nearly 10 point 8 million extremely low income renters only 7.4 million rental homes are affordable and available nationwide. So the more affordable housing that we’re preserving the more housing options we are providing to our neighbors. But more importantly, having issues regarding having environmental issues, environmental justice issues and conditions issues and having environmental justice issues and characterizing housing conditions as an environmental justice issue. Having this at our forefront is in the forefront of our consciousness is really an active valuing of our neighbors, in additionally is a reflection of the behaviors that we deemed to be acceptable in our housing market. So families dignity and their humanity isn’t contingent upon their socio economic status. But sometimes when we discuss housing and how it should be provided, we d humanize our neighbors. Often conversations impose the failures of systems onto individuals. Some would even say go further and say that these systems were actually crafted to create these inequities, and that we the collective we, we have not actively done enough to correct the system. Instead, we make families responsible for systematic disinvestment in black and brown communities. We make them at fault for the intentional exclusion, from participation in environmental justice issues, and land use issues in conversations in and around how property rental properties are supposed to be kept in good working order. And then further, we fault them for not having the resources to just move to a better location. And so while today’s conversation really focuses on subsidized properties, I do want to say that this is also an issue in the non subsidized property stock as well. And I just say that to say that we all have a role to play, even if we don’t work with subsidized residents. Next slide. Okay, so we have discussed what conditions advocacy is and what it covers and why it’s important. But how do you identify substandard conditions and how do you prove them? Well, generally speaking, the state and local code will codify or describe and describe described and defined what conditions standards are and how they can be met for rental properties. local and state codes can be really detailed, they can get to the point where they define the minimum size of a bedroom, how many exits a structure should have, you know, window sizes for lighting, how well landlord should handle any toxins found at the property. So really spanning the gambit of defining habitability concerns. On the other hand, logo codes can also have very serious gaps for instance, a state or local law may not codify or even speak to how a landlord is supposed to handle mold in a rental property. So if you the takeaway for this kind of portion of this slide is that you have to kind of figure out what are all of the applicable state and local laws, you know, see statutes ordinances, case law, yet we have to kind of just figure out the lay of the land, and then enforcement. The enforcement process, as well as the agency tasked with oversight and enforcement will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. If you are working with a group of residents who live at a property that is subsidized by a housing program, and particular properties subsidized by a Federal Housing Program, the program will have condition standards, federal agencies, they have an obligation to provide decent, safe and sanitary housing. Now, how do we define decent, safe and sanitary will be contingent upon the agency and the housing program. Each agency will have its own condition standards, meaning they will define conditions differently, they will define the elements of functionality very differently. And it will also each agency will also have its own process for assessing the physical health of assisted properties. And finally, they’ll also have their own enforcement protocol. On this slide, I said that even more standard sometimes, because these agencies really have uneven oversight practices, their process, their processes for assessing the physical health of a property are also very antiquated. And then finally, they’re very slow to bring troubled properties back into compliance. It has truly been the work of advocates and residents to bring properties back into compliance and to create preservation plans and to improve housing conditions. Next slide. Okay, so we have identified physical conditions that are substandard at a prop at a property. So what next? Well, essentially, there are two options in regards to the physical property itself, communities can decide to continue to allow the property to deteriorate, or they can advocate for improved conditions. In hlp, we are affordable housing advocates. And so we we hope in all cases, the communities decided to advocate for better conditions. As previously mentioned, the loss of affordable housing units create serious consequences for low income families, and the communities in which they live, the supply of federal subsidized housing is very much falls short of the high demand. This also includes a naturally affordable housing, there’s just the fordable housing, there’s just not enough. And then, you know, this is compounded the consequences are compounded when the property at issue that has the condition issues is the only property providing affordable housing within the community. This means that if the property is not preserved, then we essentially lose neighbors who have contributed a great amount of social capital into the in the communities in which they live. So here, I’ve included a couple of considerations when developing an advocacy plan. And the cornerstone of any advocacy plan must be the residents. Resident organizing is so so, so important. Emily gave us a great brief overview of what resident organizing was able to achieve in Chicago. So resonant organizing is a way to build collective power amongst community members, which is really important when we’re thinking about the particular demographic that we’re working with, in particular, the particular demographic that lives that subsidized housing, right? These communities are typically marginalized, there are typically their voices are typically not considered in the processes to have oversight and enforce condition standards. And this is really just harkens back to what the other panelists were describing of the importance of disseminating information to residents. So resident organizing is a great way to do that to share information to build empowerment amongst the community. And it’s also a really great tool to get conditions improved at a property and to do that in a way that is mutually beneficial to residents, to the community, to the housing provider. And then I just would close here and say that, once again, it is really truly been the efforts of residents and their allies that have driven the improved conditions and the preservation of properties. And so really, you know, residents are experts on Their lives and they know what it is that they need in order to remain housed at the current property. And so I cannot emphasize enough the importance of elevating, supporting and championing resident voices in ensuring that they have agency in choosing where they get to live and remain. Next slide. So here, I just wanted to provide a couple of resources, if you consider, or if you should decide or find yourself in need of developing an advocacy plan to address condition issues. So the research research resources includes resources that describe the various federal housing programs, as well as the various programs provided at the federal level to help address preservation issues, which can also be leveraged to address condition issues. The strategy resources, include documents that can help spur or help you kind of outline your own strategy and what to think about when developing an advocacy plan regarding conditions and preservation. And with that, I’ll turn it back over to Megan. 

Haberle, 54:47 

Thanks so much. Thank you to all of our panelists. And with that, we’ll turn it over to the audience for questions.

All right, so thank you so much. Again, I think that we did an okay job trying to keep a piece with questions in the chat. I apologize again, that we didn’t leave a little more time for interactive q&a. And that folks on this panel just had so much rich content to present. So thank you all again. And panelists, do you Did you see any other comments in the chat or questions in the chat that you wanted to respond to that we didn’t already get to? 

Haberle, 55:39

No, okay, um, well, with that, I think we will conclude our session, I put our emails in the chat box. So please feel free to reach out to us if anyone would like to discuss any of this with with us further. And thank you so much for joining our session today. 

Chizewer, 55:54 

Thank you. 

With a new administration in place, fair housing advocates must decide on their new priorities. What policies will they advocate for? What cases will they pursue? And in the midst of a pandemic, how will they achieve their goals?

The landscape of fair housing has changed drastically just in the past year. COVID-19 has hit communities of color especially hard. The economic cost of COVID-19 has exacerbated the segregation that was already rampant in America’s cities and suburbs, and its impact will remain even after the pandemic.

Nonprofits have been forced to find new ways to serve their communities. Outreach and education have become more difficult. Just staying afloat financially has become a struggle for many organizations. Our panelists will speak about how they are continuing their work and maintaining their focus.

Amidst the upheaval of COVID-19, there is a new landscape in the federal government, as well. With a new president and new Congressional leaders, many advocates are hoping for major action on issues like the foreclosure crisis, desegregation efforts and discriminatory algorithms used in mortgage lending. This session is an opportunity for advocates to share their ideas, and decide what will be on the top of their agendas.

Speakers:

• Jake Lilien,  Attorney and Program Manger of Compliance, NCRC
• Stella Adams, Fair Housing Conference
• Morgan Williams, Attorney, Millenium Challenge Corporation
• Christopher Brancart, Attorney, Brancart & Brancart
• Bryan Greene, Vice President of Public Advocacy, National Association of Realtors

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Lilien, 00:05

Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us, I apologize profusely for the delay. We have had some technical issues with this panel that we have not had with any other panel at this entire conference. But thanks so much for those of you who decided to wait it out. My name is Jake Lilian. I am an attorney here at NCRC. And I am the manager of NCRC compliance program. I am the organizer of the panel. And it is my pleasure to introduce our moderator, Stella Adams. Stella is a legend in the Fair Housing world. And she hired me here at NCRC, almost five years ago to the day when she was our chief of equity and inclusion. So thank you so much for joining us today. Stella, take it away. 

Adams, 00:51 

Thank you so very much. Um, this is gonna be an amazing panel. I’m gonna let us get right to it. Um, we are going to hear from a young man with the National Fair Housing Alliance, Morgan Williams. And he’s going to really talk about the future of fair housing from a unique perspective and the perspective that we all have. And what’s life gonna look like? Post COVID and he has some insight says he wants to share with us not only about the vision of that future, but how we can engage in that future. And with that introduction, I’m going to ask Morgan Williams if he will speak and tell us and talk to us about his PC. 

Williams, 1:55 

Thank you, Stella. And thank you, everyone, for sticking with us in regards to the technical issues. Obviously, we’re in the midst of the pandemic. And it has potentially changed with the prevalence and distribution of vaccines here in the US, but it will be with us for some time. And it’s this time, you know, been going on for over a year. And as we sit with how it has affected us and changed us as people. And as advocates, it’s helpful to potentially contemplate the way in which this change has presented an opportunity to expand fair housing advocacy. No doubt, the pandemic presents a different frame to pursue our advocacy. But the fights remain. And I’m just going to very briefly give, I think, a truncated time, a list for ways in which I think the pandemic has potentially changed perspectives in ways that we may want to try to seize upon. And the first is that with the essential worker, there is a greater appreciation of the low-income worker, there’s a lot of stereotypes that accompany poverty, and the pandemic has served to change some of those. And with that, there’s the potential for a shift in paradigm regards to the Housing Choice Voucher Program. From a from an operation of scarcity. There are long waitlists across regions to paradigm of universal access for any household that is eligible. And with that shift comes the need for corresponding source of income protections, and there is a current push at the federal level to advance national source of income protections. Unfortunately, it is a fraud issue. And its success depends upon the way that the infrastructure package moves forward. But on this issue, there’s still great opportunity for expanding state and local protections. And there’s great opportunity for HUD to exert its authority through guidance and enforcement. Secondly, with the devastation that COVID brought disproportionately to the black and Latino communities, there’s a greater understanding of the link between systemic racism and health disparities. And with that, there’s an opportunity for fair housing advocates to link community health assessments. And whatever planning process fair housing planning process emerges under the new assessment, assessment of fair housing afH regime. I will post just a link here to information on the CDC website about community health assessments. But we’re advancing the idea that communities should engage in these planning process with planning processes, which take place every three to five years, concurrent with their fair housing planning to understand and explore not only the depth to which systemic racism impacts health disparities and health disparities perpetuates systemic racism, but how to uncracked that problem at a local level. Third thing that has emerged from the pandemic and the Black Lives Matter movement in the course of the pandemic, is a greater understanding the link between the history of slavery and modern-day racial wealth and equity. This presents a greater opportunity for potential race-conscious housing programs. The small business administration’s regulatory screed scheme could be a model for such housing programs. And the first thing that that scheme is predicated upon is voluminous findings on the history of discrimination in the relevant industry, and continuing disparities. The assessment of fair housing process as it emerges, is that at the local level, and it presents an opportunity not only to identify priorities that can be used to counteract identified impediments to fair housing, but it can be used to establish the compelling interest needed to survive constitutional scrutiny of race-conscious housing programs and more can be done to link Affirmatively Furthering fair housing and the development of specifically tailored local housing 

programs. And the fourth thing I’ll briefly note is that the Black Lives Matter movement has entered the pandemic in the course of the recognition of broad racial discrimination and the effects of the pandemic has been Everyone so broadly understand systemic racism, an issue that we’ve been working on for the history of our movements, there’s a greater popular understanding of this. And with that, there’s a greater ability to apply that thinking to new innovations, including in the tech space. And we’re working to identify models that can be implemented to address that systemic racism. We’re working with federal regulators to harness that greater broader understanding of systemic racism, to ensure that they hold banks and other credit entities that are using AI in deploying their services, and building off of data that is bias and systems that are biased, to actually undo those systems and use AI to actually implement more equitable systems moving forward. And actually, federal regulators have a request for information on the use of AI, and their regulatory scope. That’s due on June 1. And we’re collaborating with our civil rights partners to coordinate a sign-on letter, so more information on that. But these are just some of the ways that pandemic has shifted our appreciation of systemic racism and deepened equity in a way that we could advance with the tools that we have within the Fair Housing movement. With that, still, I’ll turn it back to you.  

Adams, 08:20 

Thank you so much for that, I very much appreciate it. And at this point in time, I’m gonna ask a man that needs no introduction. Chris Brancart, who is a very proficient and successful there hasn’t an attorney, and who, whose work goes is beyond repair, compare. So Chris, take it away and talk to us a little bit about what you see is our future. 

Brancart, 08:58 

Hi, I’m Chris Brancart. And thank you very much Stella. That was, that was a very nice introduction. And, and Morgan, thank you, because I think your approach looking at it in these new frames is, is helpful. And it’s thoughtful, and I think you’ve hit the nail on the head is at work. I, when I was asked to think about this topic, I was sort of struck with a great ambivalence. And by that, I mean, I have great hope for our future. And I do believe that over time, because I was raised in an enlightenment Western tradition, that over time that we progress, and in that things do get better. But I also read a lot of history. And, and I also see, and I understand, and I appreciate that progress is not a straight line, though, we do hope it bends towards justice. But I am sort of struck, having worked in fair housing now for not quite three decades, and having worked close to the ground, worked, day in and day out on, on relatively small cases, invest investigating the meeting the people that are affected by discriminatory housing practices, I am a bit struck that I thought we would have made more progress by now. I thought we would have made more progress by now. I mean, I’m not saying that we were going to wake up, and it was going to be like the famous painting piece on earth and a lamb would lie down with the lion. But I am saying that I thought many of the systemic problems would be resolved that government, all units of government would be advocating for fair housing through the Affirmatively Furthering process or through the general plan process or, or through any number of governmental requirements that call upon government to, to advance for housing to increase opportunity. And I and I believed in that strongly because from a strictly economic point of view, or calling or a strictly republican or point of view, that one of the great strengths of the United States. One of the things that has allowed the United States to be so resilient over time, is that we’ve expanded opportunity More so than any other country in history, that we have broken down barriers and invited people to join the conversation and to join the economy. And because of that, we have rebounded from incredible missteps, such as the meltdown, the financial crisis in 2007 2008. But I am also, I am also a little bit chastened by the fact that, I look back at so many missed opportunities. And that, you know, this my adulthood, my full adulthood, you know, I think about the loss back in 2000, of gore being defeated by bush and what would have been both on the issues of climate and social justice. I look back after the years of President Obama who did not, perhaps push the agenda I was hoping that was going to be was going to be pressed. But did a did an incredibly good job. And then, of course, we see the last four years ending as it did and, and I am left with, with the feeling that I need to, I need to take some of the medicine that that that Morgan just just gave us, and to renew my optimism about the future. Because I am a bit struck, that we’re on a precipice that we yet we don’t yet know what to do. I do agree with Morgan, that the time is now that the wonderful thing about the pandemic is, and there’s nothing wonderful about disease and losing people. But the wonderful thing about the pandemic is that it it affected all of us, and therefore, it brought a sense of unity Now, unfortunately, because of the political leadership at the time, that that that effect was used, or they tried to use it to divide us. And  that is, well, that is what it was. But But I do agree that that. And I also think that, you know, looking back in our recent past that, you know, we’ve made so many profound missteps, the notion that we were going to be upset about spending a trillion dollars to support people, because of the pandemic seemed to me to have no legs at all, because we had just spent $2 trillion blowing things up in Asia and Southeast Asia, to no good end. And, and so at least we’re focusing our resources on people that need it, and not to destructive purposes. So going back to the points that Morgan raised, I’m, I’m delighted to hear them, because I think they are the frames that we need to look at. But I also recognize that I’m not sure we’re ready. I’m not sure we’re prepared for what the new housing market looks like. And what we as your housing advocates need to do to, to ensure that there’s social justice in that housing market, just three examples to think about. One is last night, when I was so struck with my ambivalence, trying to think about what to say, I, I, when I oftentimes want to divert myself, I went on YouTube, and I listened to an old lecture and old interview of a, of a philosopher Quine, who I don’t understand, and I understand why he’s such a big deal, because I don’t understand him, because he is a big deal. But I went back and listen to him. And it was sort of so striking that, that in my lifetime, I now have access to all of this information, all of this data that I could never dream of when I was in college or in law school. At the same time, the ubiquity of digitized information has so changed the housing market, that we as for housing advocates, I don’t think have caught up, I don’t think that we have come to totally grasp what it means to think of the housing market, that we want to bring social justice to as an information market, then information market is now digitized, and once digitized, can be subject to all kinds of manipulation for good and bad. And it seems to me that what the first thing we have to do is since we’re on this precipice of this change in the housing market, is we have to figure out what exactly does Big Data mean in terms of the housing market and how the algorithms affect us. The second thing I was struck by, was, I have always lived in a world that that thing happened, I lived in a material world that was a materialist, maybe a positivist. And I actually went around the world and I wanted to meet people and talk with them about their experiences. But one of the things that so struck me over the last few years is that our consciousness, our sense of, of right and wrong, our sense of reality, has been so truncated and bounded by what we’re receiving from the internet or on screens, that I’m wondering if we’re missing the debate. We’re missing the debate, if we’re not actively engaged in actively engaged in promoting our mission, our view our agenda, on the internet, and social media platforms and things of that kind. And I would urge, I would urge everyone who’s involved in fair housing, to really think about that, in terms of what is our platforms look like? What do our platforms look like, and how well we groom them and maintain them. I know, Toledo has done a tremendous amount of great work in this area. I know that Moran has done some fantastic work in this area. But it’s something that struck me when I began to realize that lived reality was no longer the world that I grew up in, it was no longer a materialist world in which I’m in real. What did I say? The kids say? What do they say IRL, in real life, IRL, it wasn’t your IRL in terms of things and materialism and things that I walked through in time and space, but it became this manufactured reality that was being handed to me by the internet. For good, I get to listen to coin be interviewed last night, and for an hour and a half. I can’t say I learned much. But but also for for bad. Right. I mean, we’ve seen the manipulation, of course in the last four years. And then the last thing I would say that, about the frames that that gives me hope that Morgan touched on was the notion of recognizing connectivity between what we hope to accomplish is for housing advocates, and the other problems that confront so many people many times, in my work, just the nature of the work I do is, is as I said very close to the ground, and it deals relatively small cases, I am dealing with individuals that are confronted with confronted with immediate needs in the form of maintaining their housing, or the condition of their housing, or obtaining a loan or some permission from some institution. So they can go on improve their lives, whether it’s building affordable housing, or just getting a loan to, to buy a house. And and I’m very struck by the fact that when I approach problems, as someone who does for housing cases, I very much tend to be very siloed. And what I mean by that is, I look at it from the prism of will is there for housing case here, what’s the evidence and things of that kind. And I think that the point Morgan was raising, that was so powerful was I need to break out of that silo because my legalistic narrow view of the world does not resonate. It’s not resonating with people. It’s not resonating. What people want, when they contact me is solutions to the immediate needs. And those solutions are not going to be found always in the form of a court case, but rather in the work that Morgan was outlining, about working with agencies to connect, what are health disparities and housing and how is it that they affect each other? What does it mean, to regulate artificial intelligence, in terms of very simple rules that make up these algorithms that have such a profound disparate impact? We certainly saw the industry was very concerned about that. And it should give us cause to take a closer look, when you saw the work that came out of the Trump administration’s rewrite of the disparate impact rules. And so while I’m ambivalent about the future, and I sit here today, I didn’t think we’d be living like with the Jetsons, I didn’t think I’d have a power pack or something like that, or I’d have a microwave that you know, you put in a block and out came a steak or something like that, I did think that we would have made more progress. And I’m chasing by the fact that we haven’t. And I hope that looking at the points that the frames that Morgan has proposed that we approach this precipice we’re on this whole radical change that’s occurring in the housing market as we’ve moved to digitized information that’s transmitted not in real life, but rather through this, this medium of the internet, that I hope that we are Developing the tools and the strategies to address housing discrimination there so that when we meet five years from now, I won’t be here, but some other person will be. And they’ll say, Wow, we’ve accomplished a lot over the first administration, Biden administration and into the, into the Harris administration. So that’s all I have. And I appreciate being here. And I appreciate what Morgan said, I really much forward to what Mr. Green has say, and to learn more. Thank you.  

Adams, 22:19 

Thank you so much, Chris, we appreciate you. And we appreciate you, bringing us into focus around what we need to what we have left to do. With that, I’m gonna introduce you to Brian Greene, who just won this fantastic award just the other day, like, top leader in housing for the whole country. So we’re pretty excited to have him with us today. I remember him when he was just a bush, intern. And then here he is Man of the Year, what can I say? We are so happy to have you with us, Bryan. And we were so eager to hear your vision. 

Greene, 23:09

Okay, well, no pressure, right. So thank you. And it’s great to follow. Chris Brancart and Morgan Williams. And they’re great ideas and framework for helping us look at the future of fair housing. I sort of want to lay out a framework that I think it’s time for us to prioritize. And that is, I see our focus now having to be advocating for more systemic changes, overall, that fair housing advocacy should focus more on systemic change, proactive engagement, and by proactive engagement, I mean, that government, like HUD and Department of Justice, take action, not just on the individual complaints, but identify outstanding discriminatory practices and proactively seek to address them, which means that they need to be funded to emphasize that kind of initiative. And then reparative justice, there is a great appetite in this country, to actually not only identify past harms, but to restore people for those past harms. We know who has been harmed we have among us today, if not the actual individuals who’ve been harmed been harmed by official discriminatory practices, the descendants who’ve been harmed and affected. And I think there’s, if not a broad consensus, certainly an emerging consensus, that it’s time to explore some of those options. So let me just talk about a few of these. And I see opportunities for us to address these things, from government, from advocacy and from industry. So in terms of systemic changes, of course, you know, individual complaints, filed with HUD and state and local agencies must be addressed. But we know that there’s so much discrimination that occurs in our country today, that individuals will never really be able to identify, I can say from the real estate industry perspective, that the testing that New York Newsday did, opened up eyes of many in the real estate industry as to practices that were occurring in sales and real estate sales, that they would not have otherwise known. I mean, unless they were engaging in them, but they would not have otherwise known because they did not see the two sides of the equation. And even people who might engage in some of these practices, if they’re, if they have implicit biases may not be aware that, you know, people are treating African Americans, Asians Hispanics one way and treating whites another way. And testing, of course, is the best evidence of that. You know, I think many in our industry have long supported fair housing and have advised consumers when they see discrimination to file a complaint, or when they experienced discrimination filed a complaint. But testing illustrates that individuals don’t know that they’re being discriminated against because they don’t have that privileged information. So it’s important that fair housing groups are actively doing testing and pursuing complaints based on that. And I would say HUD should be doing more testing HUD should be supporting testing, in support of investigations, and proactively working with fair housing groups to do testing for enforcement purposes. So we have a National Association of Realtors have been advocating increased budgets for HUDs enforcement work and for the private fair housing groups call in Congress right now. Cortez masto senator Cortez masto has a bill that would increase the funding. And we think that’s very important. And but we want to stress that that funding increase should support more testing and more proactive engagement. HUD has a systemic, Secretary initiated investigations office, we really think that office should be more active and taking a leadership role in identifying discriminatory practices. And addressing them. For example, there’s been a lot of news coverage about discrimination and appraisals. We think this is really significant, because you know, we all advocate more homeownership. But the concern we should all have is that people of color, buy homes, and then don’t realize the full benefit of it. If you have a home and your home is being devalued, either because of your race, or because of the racial composition of your community, you really are not getting the full American dream, you’re, you’re achieving a fraction of the American dream, or I don’t know, it’s not quite a dream. It’s like a groggy state. We want to be sure that there is no discrimination, ultimately, in homeownership, meaning that it when you go to refinance your home, or when you go to tap the equity in your home, that you achieve what you deserve. So this is a role for government to lean in and investigate these practices. It’s an opportunity to bring different entities together another role government can take sort of takes me to sort of proactive engagement, where government can convene real estate industry, the appraisal industry, the government-sponsored enterprises like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and say, we need to roll up our sleeves. You know, here’s an example where, you know, we have what a 45% homeownership rate among African Americans. The wealth may be there, but untapped because of devalued potential devalued appraisals. And so we should know, we should make sure that everyone who currently has a home game gaining the full benefit of that. So that’s something I think that would be really critical for government to engage in. In terms of other proactive engagement. You know, I think fair housing advocates have an opportunity to highlight and address institutional discrimination, institutional racism, all kinds of structural practices that are discriminatory for housing groups being in the community and working with communities on their furtively furthering fair housing obligations, I think, have a great opportunity today. Now that more and more Americans are unearthing the past of their communities. Just recently, we heard in Manhattan Beach, how the city or maybe it’s the county, Los Angeles County is actually returning to an African American family, a beach that the city had taken by eminent domain of Bruce’s beach in Manhattan Beach, and a few generations later, but the history was known. And you actually saw county officials acknowledge that what happened was wrong, although they didn’t officially apologize. They acknowledged and condemned the past practice, and said we are going to turn this land over to the family is perhaps more than I should do because the family lost the benefit of this land for about 100 years. But that said, communities are engaging in this kind of historical analysis, and probably for housing groups who are working with communities on Affirmatively Furthering fair housing, have an opportunity to help these communities see these examples. And I think they’re the most powerful examples to begin the analysis because a lot of people don’t otherwise appreciate the starting point. And I know from the National Association of Realtors, this is a conversation we have with some members. The president of National Association of Realtors last year apologized for the role of our association in creating and maintaining racial, racially restrictive covenants and redlining. And while overwhelmingly, our membership recognized that was important and supported that apology, we still have members who didn’t understand it and, you know, viewed the past as bad actors or, or the past is the past and not affecting today. And so there’s a lot of education, that still must be done. But to be able to point to specific acts, specific practices, specific stories, I think helps with that, with that conversation. There are private groups who are calling attention to the impact of racially restrictive covenants in their communities. I think that’s helpful. There’s the mapping prejudice project out of Minneapolis, there’s another one, also out of Minnesota called just deeds, that is showing the impact of those past, now unenforceable deeds on our communities today. So all of that history, I think, draws a clear line that people can understand, so that they, so as we talk about Affirmatively Furthering fair housing, they can appreciate, you know why it’s still necessary today, what the impact is, and I think because there is perhaps a minority, but a vocal minority of people who are pushing back who don’t understand the systemic nature of discrimination, and how it continues, despite changes in law, I think it’s important to tell those stories and to draw that line for people, especially if you’re trying to do advocacy and influence decision making at the local level. And along those same lines, I want to talk about reparative. Justice, in a sense, what I described with Manhattan Beach as an example, but there are cities, communities across the nation, really in the last couple of years, who are recognizing an opportunity to begin leveling the playing field by helping those families who were harmed by discriminatory practices over the past century. So one great example Evanston, Illinois, they decided that they were going to compensate families whose wealth descendents of families who were harmed by that city’s discriminatory practices, that city’s segregated practices, which limited African American families to a small triangular area of the city between 1919 and 1969. And, you know, I think this is perhaps a model for others to think about. It’s conservative, but at the same time, I think very logical that they recognize the city’s official actions to redline and to confine people to certain blocks based on race. And they said that, you know, during this period, we committed these actions. And anyone who is a descendant of anyone who was limited to those, to those blocks, now would be entitled to this new fund that they created using the tax taxes on marijuana sales. So a new fund, it wasn’t diverting money from existing city funds. But they said we’re creating a fund, and we’re going to give this to descendants. And this is an effort to acknowledge the harm that was caused. Now it’s very modest, but legally, I think they were very careful to create a program that could withstand challenge and so others may look to this and make it more bold, but recognize this can be done and may be appropriate in different cities. I know Asheville, North Carolina is looking at the impact of urban renewal on that community. And so as, as for housing advocates, and others do assessments of fair housing in a community, I think this is a very important part of the history where people, you know, saw the loss of their homes and businesses without due compensation. And of course, you know, this included infrastructural decisions to great NPR story just this past weekend, just about how all this played out in Los Angeles. So there’s an opportunity for, I think, a diverse set of actors to weigh in on all of these things, and identify how some of these systemic practices are still leaving many behind. And the need for us to look at our housing finance systems, for example, and how they may still disadvantage people, you know, what we may be overlooking, sometimes and how they disadvantage people. So I do think this is a great opportunity for us. As Chris said, unfortunately, I think COVID in a way, you know, it was necessary to highlight these things, which is that, but I think that’s going to be the nature of things that we are going to have these situations. And again, we’re going to discover how they disproportionately affect certain populations, because of our history. And so when those lessons are presented to us, we should follow up. So I want to thank you for your time. And I really appreciate being part of this August group. 

Adams, 38:29 

Thank you so much, Bryan. And I just want to thank all of our time, our panelists who have done an extraordinary job. And then the next few minutes, I’m going to ask you some questions. And hopefully, we can generate a little conversation amongst ourselves. And then in the final 10 minutes, and we will answer questions from our audience. But the first question I want to pose to you is, um, how can we work together? across as civil rights and fair housing and community health advocates? How can we work together leverage and leverage our resources to attack fair housing issues? 

Williams, 39:22 

Thank you. I would just I know, my colleagues on the panel will have thoughts, just two quick thoughts. I mean, I think it’s, it’s top-down and bottom-up. And at the federal level, there is a directive that has been given to HUD and federal agencies to account for the extent to which systemic racism has been perpetrated by the federal government, federal agencies, by agency by agency, and there needs to be coordination in that assessment. And I think there’s an opportunity for the CDC and Hud and other agencies that are involved in this engagement, to look at how to coordinate those planning processes moving forward. But then from the ground up. We all are the local leaders in our communities that can provide information to our cities, to our local housing departments that are charged with carrying out whatever fair housing planning unfolds in this new regime, and that leadership is something to bring in local health officials conversation, planning processes are coordinated. 

Adams, 40:30 

And, Bryan, I’m gonna come to you next, because you can talk a little bit from your past experience, about how that that internal federal coordination does or doesn’t work and what we can look forward to in the next couple of years. 

Greene, 40:49 

Yeah, you know, so I really think that what helps influence government is really what happens outside and it’s really people banding together to press a case. And I think we have a great opportunity right now, because many and how the housing industry and the Fair Housing community are seeing some alignment of their interest. You know, Morgan can tell you the Mortgage Bankers Association and the National Fair Housing Alliance are working together on you know, a major initiatives and proposals and finding common cause. Likewise, we’re working with National Fair Housing Alliance and a group of industry advocates and for housing advocates on the black homeownership collaborative, a recognition that you know, You know, housing, homeownership for people of color is going to be necessary to keep growing our economy, the 75% home, homeownership rate among whites may not go much higher, you know, we’re not going to have everyone owning homes. But when we have these differentials, we, if we want to see our economy expand, we’re going to have to identify those barriers, and address those barriers for people of color. And, you know, more and more, we’re seeing the data come out from various think tanks and economists just on how much money America loses by not addressing both segregation, and these inequities. And now, you know, the White House is actually using some of that data. So the more I think we outside of government, are in lockstep on this, and, you know, sending coalition letters, joining together on, you know, different collaboratives I think that will make a difference. 

Adams, 43:06 

Chris, this is supposed to be a conversation, I should know.  

Brancart, 43:13 

Yeah, well, and I can see that, that Bryan and Morgan have muted themselves, which leaves me like a lone man in a lifeboat. Um, you know, I just want to echo what, what, what, what, what Brian and Morgan said, and I will say, one of the things that strikes me, as I say, working on case cases close to the ground locally, is that we have not done a very good job of building bridges to the industry, as well as to local government. And what I mean by that is this, we rarely take advantages, advantage of the opportunities to, to comment and to, to speak to things such as general plan revisions or Affirmatively Furthering fair housing, opportunities, or CDBG hearings. And I know because being in local government at different times, but also suing a lot of local governments, I see what’s in these files. And I’m surprised at the at the scarcity of comments by for housing advocates. So one thing I think we need to do is just, we need to take advantage of the opportunities that are there. That’s the first thing. The second thing is I think we need to build bridges. And Brian’s alluded to this. And Morgan, by bringing in the health disparities, we need to build bridges to people in the industry. So for example, Morgan, and Brian spoke about discrimination potentially, in the appraisal of housing. We are working on one such case. And the first thing I wanted to know was, can we call an appraiser who is you know, they don’t have to be like a fellow traveler or anything like that. But can we do we know an appraiser that we can call just to say, Hey, this is a gut check? Does this look strange to you? And no one really knew an appraiser that we could call, there’s a reason we got to build those bridges. That’s one thing so that we can have those, those experts that we can go to? And, and I’m sure Brian can help us connect with some of those folks. Here’s the second thing I want to say, you know, we complain a lot to government when it does things wrong. But I think as as as social advocates, as social beings, we need to honor government when it does things right. Okay. So when, when and I think we’re in for some good things with the Biden administration, I think they’ve they put some great people in the right places. Now, when they do things that are right. We need to reach out to them say, hey, this was a great thing you did we support you on this. And by the way, we got your back when people start pushing against what you’re trying to do, whether it be the new afH, the former, the further regulation or the rewrite on disparate impact. We’ve got your back, and we appreciate what you’re doing. We need to have that conversation going both ways so that every time we pick up the phone, it isn’t like, oh, what have you screwed up this time? It’s like, Hey,  you know, I’ll call you and tell you and you screw up. But I want to tell you, I really appreciate what you did in this recent rule or vote or whatever. And we’re there and we gotcha. So I’d like to see us build that conversation more because we well. 

Adams, 46:27 

So I’m going to talk a little bit about Chris, I agree with you about engagement at the local level in building a record at CDBG hearings, consolidated planning hearings, transit hearing, Now I know I have to also go to some kind of health meeting and the guts. But I can tell you that as a in my retire, stay, I have been engaged at home. And here’s kind of the way these things go. The public hearing for the consolidate the CDBG program was scheduled, the hearing was announced December 23. For a hearing on January 4. And in the meantime, they said the hearing was for the annual plan. Did they put a copy of the plan out for me to review? No, if I didn’t know what the annual plan was, and most community members don’t. Um, and there’s nothing there that tells me this is where I go to ask for sidewalks and infrastructure and support for my neighborhood and affordable housing is I don’t know that right? One, would I be paying attention on December the 23rd. Not even the havoc is paid attention. And January 4 was the first day back to work. But they technically met the criteria of a 10 day notice. Now, I’ve caught it. And I got six people to complain. And we had, and we had them hold an extra meeting because the law requires two. But we’ll be nice to give y’all a third meeting. So they gave us the meeting. There were 2025 folks who submitted comments at the public hearing, there was a forum in February, where community organizations all across the city came. We get to the hearing on March and we give our data and then the final hearing is on April 19. And not a damn thing is changed. Not one. And so when we complained about it, they went Oh, you were in the wrong hearings. It was you were at the consolidated planning here, as you should have been at the comprehensive planning hearings, and oh, about that bus. You needed to be part of the transit planning hearings. Now. You come from a low-income neighborhood. And you are standing in a ditch waiting for the bus stop. You have your taxes have gone up 300% versus white neighborhoods that have gone up 26%. But you’re supposed to figure out which public hearing you’re supposed to be in. And even if you can’t figure it out, how much money are you expected to lose in wages, to attend all these meetings. And so you know, it’s incumbent upon us to figure out a way to work together to leverage and take pieces of this and respond. I am at Wit’s in. I get away with a lot because you know, it’s me. But if you’re a neighborhood person trying to get betterment for your neighborhood, and you go to all these meetings, and at the last one, they go to be somewhere else. Most of the community groups are so deflated, that they don’t try again. And that’s kind enough. Is that where I need to call you, Chris? 

Brancart, 50:57 

Oh, you know, I’m just going to make one observation. And it goes back to this notion that maybe our reality has shifted, it seems to me that one of the things as for housing advocates is we have to go back and be better community organizers. And that means that we have got to be the folks that build the if you will, the entry ramps into these proceedings, so that people know what hearing to go to. And I think we have to be sort of a few wild translators. I also think, again, you know, it goes back we have to build allies, their allies in the government, their allies in business. And it’s those allies. And I hate to say that we have to circumvent a bureaucracy to go and get the truth but sometimes a phone call to an ally and local government to say hey, What’s really going on? Or who do we need to talk to, can make a huge difference. We need to be putting resources into building those bridges by so that we have those allies in the future. 

Williams, 51:57 

And, and just to this point for advocates who want some more background information on things like the consolidated planning process and how it should work, the National Low Income Housing Coalition has a great guide that add for example, set page seven DASH 29 starts a good review validated planning process and how it should work. So when jurisdictions inevitably don’t necessarily do what they should Estelle outline in myriad ways, you can use that to challenge them to do it, right. 

Adams, 52:36 

Bryan, what do you think? How can the NAR the local realtors assist us in these processes? 

Greene, 52:42 

Well, you know, many associations, and private for housing groups just never talk. And I, I’m always surprised, you know, and I come obviously, to NAR from HUD, and sometimes there’s just a, sometimes I think there’s fear. And sometimes there’s just, you know, lack of knowledge of who’s out there and who’s doing what. And so I’m constantly trying to bring these groups together. Because they won, you know, they have a resource in their community, they don’t need to call me all the time on fair housing matters. And then too, there’s a lot that they can do together. So for example, there’s a group formed this past year, a Facebook group called real estate professionals against racism, and they’re having great conversations on a wide variety of topics. There’s so many topics that they’re raising, where private fair housing groups would probably want to join and be part of that conversation. But they don’t necessarily know them in their community. And so they call me and then I identify the groups, but you know, if people knew them, and there’s a lot that they could be doing together, and I think that’s sort of important for, for the for housing community to appreciate to that. You know, you may think of the National Association of Realtors as a monolith, we’re 1.4 million members. And so we actually are a great cross-section of the American people. And many of the issues that you’re raising are concerned about individuals within the real estate profession are also concerned about and forming conversations and initiatives. So there’s just lots of opportunity for people to link up. So yeah, so I’ll certainly do all that I can to build those bridges. But I, you know, I encourage for housing groups to reach out to local and state real estate associations as well. 

Adams, 55:00 

Bryan and Morgan, and for you as well, Chris, um, there’s a lot of concern going on about whether they call them pocket sales, where nothing goes out, it’s so private, that somehow it’s a private transaction. And the house never goes on the market, or it can only be sold to people within the same shown and sold to people within the same office. We’re very concerned, this goes back to the way the old ancient MLS used to work. And how, and if you have the sales, how does that how do we break through that? And, and bring about, um, make sure that the market is operating in a fair way. 

Brancart, 56:02 

So you’re absolutely right, this is a concern within the industry. And NAR has also said that transparency is key. And the very issue you raise of you no exclusivity. While you know there are many in the industry who see this as you know, an opportunity for any company to offer, you know, special exclusive opportunities, you know, in a tight market, to their network and their client base and national association realtors as pointed out that this could also perpetuate segregation. You know, if you don’t have a client base that includes a diverse group of people If you don’t put these listings out in the Multiple Listing services, where everyone can see them, it could perpetuate segregation. So that is a problem. And I think insofar as you know, fair housing groups are concerned about this as well, it’s an opportunity for us to come together and figure out what kind of policy could help change this. But I mean, we, as the National Association of Realtors have discouraged this practice. 

Williams, 57:17 

And that just to note that leadership, and that expressed policy discouraging this is really what we needed to, to communicate strongly to the industry that it needs to stop and to provide that leadership within the industry to stop it is it pocket listings does pose that concern that Brian noted that we share deeply, it’s also an issue that can be difficult to enforce. And so the leadership from NAR on this, in the past couple years has been profound and much needed, and just applaud that. 

Adams, 57:55 

Um, do we have is Chris, is there any way that we can utilize the provisions of the Fair Housing Act around the MLS service to perhaps attack this market? If we see that is if we can identify census tracts or communities that appear to either be altered? becoming more segregated? Or? Or is, you know, what, what kind of things? Can you imagine that we as investigators need to be looking for? To collect the evidence? We am assuming we have to use the provision of the law related to the MLS? to? To attack it? Am I in the wrong place? 

Brancart, 58:55 

Um, no, I think you are in the right place. And I think that one of the most underutilized provisions of the Fair Housing Act was the discriminatory housing practice identified in 3606, which was originally designed to deal with the brokerage of housing in the context of MLS where there were many abuses back in the 60s and 70s. And even into the 80s, in terms of how MLS manipulated access to information about the housing market, and I say it’s underutilized because I do think it’s a tool. And I know other I’ve spoken with fair housing lawyers about this, Morgan and I have spoken about it, I do think it is a tool that gives us a way to expand its application and reach to to reach into new information markets in the form of digitized information, web advertisement, things like that. Um, the challenge, of course, becomes getting access to the data. And once we get access to the data, the next challenge is how do we go ahead and analyze that data to determine where there might be a problem? And then equally important, how do we present that data? And who do we present it to? I’m going back to something I said in the very beginning, which is, oftentimes because I’m a lawyer, and I have this siloed view of the world, my thinking is what we should bring a court case. But I’m increasingly as I get older, coming to realize that that is a very weak remedy if we want to accomplish social change. And I think we need to be thinking more about when we do these studies and presenting the information to bring it to stakeholders in local government. We’re in our state government, or in now that we have an administration that will listen to the federal government. And I’ll just put this one point to this. Just to go to this one point. In California during the Trump administration, we were very frustrated that there were very few policies coming out of Washington that we thought were productive. In fact, most were counterproductive. And it is amazing to see what the California legislature did because of a lot of very skilled advocates in California, to do things like adopting and Affirmatively Furthering fair housing program during the Trump administration that actually has teeth that’s actually targeting discriminatory practices by by local jurisdictions in a way that’s never happened before. So going back to your question, I think we need to dust off section 3606. I think we need to start looking at how do we collect the data that reflects what’s going on in the housing market and analyze it, but who do we then present it to? Um, so those are my thoughts. 

Adams, 1:01:44 

Thank you all are there Jake, are you seeing any questions from others that we might address? 

Lilien, 1:01:53

Unfortunately, this channel is needed for a one o’clock session.  

Adams, 1:01:58 

All right. Well, thank you all so much for your participation. I appreciate every single one of you. And I’m sorry, I am looking at the clock and we have all you got to do to say goodbye. Because that’s all we got time for. Thank you. 

Lilien, 1:02:16 

Thank you so much, everyone. You’re troopers. 

Brancart, 1:02:18 

Thank you. Bye bye. 

Each year, the Department of Labor spends billions of dollars on workforce programs that, on the whole, fail racial minorities. Specifically, state-run one-stop employment centers and colleges largely ignore life experiences and cultural understanding. In response, Black, Latinx and women-led organizations and organized labor are creating new models of job training centers and finding unique funding sources for them.

Speakers:

• Carlos Graupera, CEO, Spanish American Civic Association
• Jerry Kellman, Senior Advisor, Organizing, NCRC
• Renaye Manley, Deputy Director, Strategic Initiatives, SEIU
• Rev. Dr. Terrence S. Keeling, President and CEO, Central Bapstist CDC

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Kellman 00:20 

Good morning, I’m Gerald Kellman and I am the Senior Advisor for organizing at the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. And we’re very pleased to have you today. Four years ago, Janet Yellen, at that time, had the Federal Reserve Bank. But currently, the secretary treasurer, came to speak at NCRC. And she spent the whole time talking about workforce for an agency that principally has dealt with housing, small business. And there’s a green light to begin to deal with workforce and jobs as part of the Community Reinvestment Act. And part of what we’ve done here in NCRC, is try to build that out using a particular funding source, the most underutilized underutilized funding source for workforce in the country, SNAP Employment and Training program run by the Department of Agriculture. In Pennsylvania, we’ve met with Governor Tom Wolf got his commitment to build out what’s now is less than $5 million coming to Pennsylvania, as much as $100 million dollars in coming years. we piloted with a program in Philadelphia, done with the laborers union, a union, which historically it’s been under African American leadership now for seven years. And what we have developed with laborers is a diversity pre apprenticeship where the laborers are training African American Latinos in Philadelphia, and getting them ready for apprenticeships in all white unions. Particularly important we look at the condition of infrastructure, and the company infrastructure bills. But today’s session today is to say that there’s a way to do this, that responds much more appropriately, to minority communities, to women, to special groups have been incarcerated people in recovery single moms, and during the re-entering the workforce. And that’s to look at grassroots organizations developing their own workforce programs. Most of there’s a ton of money in a workforce that almost all goes to state-run, one-stop workforce centers, and to colleges. And they don’t do very well. And this session, we’re going to try to raise the issue and perhaps ask you to join this other movement inside and CRC, which is to develop workforce programs under the leadership of the communities of the people they serve. And to do that on a relational way, which takes into consideration language, culture and experience those being served. So we have three great speakers to talk about today. The first is college prepare. Carlos is the director of the Spanish American Civic Association in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. For those who don’t know, Lancaster Homer, the Amish is a majority Latino city, as is most of their cities in Central Pennsylvania right now. And out of the model of sakha, which is a multi-service company organization. Carlos and colleagues developed tech Central, funded with it almost exclusively with private money, not government money and develop most state Latino workforce program in Pennsylvania, and one of the best in the country, and now are expanding, ready, and too soon for shizune to shoot for York. So Carlos says an exciting story to tell them, let them tell it. 

Graupera 03:41

Good morning, everyone. It is a pleasure to talk to you about this very exciting journey that we’ve been on, which is the advancement of community-based bilingual technology centers. In our communities. The issue that we’re trying to always address and I’m sure that it’s addressed in communities all across the country, is the issue of language, which keeps so many of our people from sustainable income, adult basic education, which tends to be lower lack of skills. Unemployment, is structurally two digits and stubbornly stays in there. underemployment is a huge issue in our community. And there is structurally a disconnection between community and vocational education, education institutions, which tell us over and over again, that they would like to be helpful. They simply don’t know how to access the community. The good thing is that employers want to connect with a population that we’re seeking to serve. And local public officials do want the issue addressed, mayor’s No longer are interested in bricks and mortar and sidewalks and, and picking up trash and, and snow removal. They’re concerned about poverty in their communities. community leaders have stopped emphasizing basic social services as important as they are, they are not the way out of poverty for our community. It is learning, raising educational level skills, training, and placement into jobs that are sustainable, and lift people out of poverty. And more of our community advocates are saying this is the path forward. So the community-based Workforce Development Centers need to be bilingual. To serve our communities, they need to be located in immediate neighborhoods of greater need. They have to be high in technology. And they have to be appealing and in high standards, because we want to affect the attitude and the motivation of people that ring our doorbell. These Workforce Development Centers cannot occur unless there are partnerships established. First with the communities and community advocates that feel the need and want to address the need. We need to have a partnership with our community colleges and our vocational institutions. We need employers also to close ranks behind us. And of course, public officials have a very important part in getting us started and keeping us sustained. I’m very pleased that our network is developing first in Lancaster, where we were able seven years ago to develop tech Central, which is a bilingual Workforce Development Center. We have opened up a second center. Subsequent to that, because we needed to expand and we needed to address the issue of trade, occupational training. Since that time, our friends and community advocates in Redding, and also in York, have engaged us in our conversation about how the tech central model can be replicated. And I’m very pleased to say that a reading will open up its Tech Center in July of this year. And York, Pennsylvania, is also ready to open its center later part of this year, as well. And we’re we’re in a conversation with our friends in Lebanon as well. So a network of community-based centers is beginning to emerge. And this effort and the role of lending institutions has been critical. We are communities that do not have the capital to address a lot of the issues. There are before us. And we need strong partners in the private sector. And our lenders are key to help us get started with neighborhood assistance with foundation grants. And simply by the, by the force of their good offices, they open up a lot of doors for us, I can tell you that the return on investment has been very, very impressive for us. In the first five years, we were able to place 903 individuals in sustainable income that has created a $27 million increase in wages in our community. any individual that works with us, for at least four months, experiences a 40% increase in their wages. And we have an increase of $8.5 million in the local economy every year, as a result of the placement that we have made with 100 additional jobs in the secondary economy as a result of these placements. We don’t use those numbers ourselves, we ask our local economic development company to track this for us and report back to us what the impact and the return on investment has been for our efforts. We think that what is happening here is important, because at long last communities are seeking solutions from the bottom up, rather than the top down. It is a very pleasant thing to see those community colleges and private education vocational institutions that couldn’t access our community. Now they have a platform through these community workforce development centers, to meet our community and to engage them. Now. are they offering the same amount of training that they do in their campuses? No, it is short-term training. It is customized, it has a lot of wraparound services, where we’re finally getting to the needs of the community. Because we see them rather than they being dictated from on high to us. I hope to talk to you more about our wonderful journey in the future. But this is where we are as of today. Thank you. 

Kellman 11:22

Thanks. So our next speaker is Reverend Terrence Keeling. Pastor Keeling decided to preach the gospel in a unique way East Wilmington is transforming East Wilmington, Delaware. The central Baptist Community Development Corporation, which we’ve worked closely with for a number of years now is a model for the state of Delaware. And it’s just changed the conversation about what a when I low income African American Beauty can achieve when I first met Terrence, that year, East women had the highest rate of murders in the United States. Now he has other things, and Terrence will tell you about them. Thank you. 

Keeling 12:12 

Thanks, Jerry. Well, let me begin by giving you a little bit of background on central Baptist Community Development Corporation. And how long we’ve been around and what it is that we try to do. We were started pressing me 11 years ago, really an answer to problems in our community. The community we serve is in Wilmington, Delaware, the east side of Wilmington, which at one time was a very stable, secure middle-class African American community. Center deteriorated 990 2% African American 40% of them below the poverty level. 72% of the households have incomes less than 35,000. a tremendous amount of abandoned buildings 70 sorry, 70% of the homeownership is rental only 30% was home only ship, people who own their homes. We set out really to revitalize the community. And we took a little bit different approach. Most people approach things based on a needs basis. We took an asset-based approach, which means that we went about looking at what do we have in community turns institutions in terms of people power, and how could we develop our community from within central Baptist Community Development Corporation is not only faith-based but is a community-based organization. Majority of our board is made up of people who live work worship in the community. When we set out, we wanted to address three different things we wanted to address, housing stabilization, workforce development and economic empowerment. And we say that they are mutually reinforcing pillows, pillows that we have built our program on. And that each one kind of works with and in tandem with the other we started out by saying that we were going to address the housing situation in the community by rebuilding the homes that were abandoned, bringing them back online, and getting people to the point where they be in a position to own those homes so that we could address not only the highly transient rental situation, but get people who were emotionally and financially invested in the community. We didn’t listen developers and we itself, ourselves became developers to to address that problem. Well, the reason we focused on workforce is because we wanted people from the community, to work on those houses as they will be being done, and to be in a position to own those homes when they were brought back online. And that’s really where our workforce development programs start started. We started out like Jerry talked about by partnering with a labor union. We started out with doing two things, soft skills training, we put in a 60, our workforce readiness training, taught people you know that there is more to going into the job and getting paid. You know, you got to show up on Monday when you get paid on Friday. Financial Literacy, early literacy, we wanted them to understand money management, help them develop a career pathway to to employment. And then the other part was to work on the hard skills. Again, we started out with reunion. And we used to actually take people from our community that we recruited, bust them out to the Training Center, where they would get hard skills, and they would learn ncce, our basic construction skills we moved on and not only did that, but we became a center where we did the ncce our training ourselves within our community didn’t have to bust them out anymore. We also did started to pick up other training because it wasn’t just construction that people in our community needed. We want it to be more than that to address the areas that were becoming in demand. So we brought in a copper wire cable and networking to deal with teaching them how to do like things like you know, the fire copper, cable wiring, welding, Microsoft Office and we kept continuing to to improve and add services to our training in what we offered. At the same time, we recognized that we needed to do more in terms of support. So we started to bring in wraparound services. And again, I want to emphasize that all of these things happen within the community. We trained a number of people put a number of people to work and we assisted that they would be in living wage jobs. These people were the objective was to help raise their incomes and their level of earnings and you know the basic way that they were living and we did have some effects Unfortunately, what happened is COVID hit like, for everybody it affected us. But it was, while it was a bad thing was also a good thing. And it is that it forced us to re examine who we are and how we were going to, to meet the needs of our community. And in doing that, we basically redesigned ourselves. We went from being the ISA rising Training Center to becoming the ISA Career Development Center. We went to a total online training. We now offer training in over 300 different courses. We now train in healthcare, things like nursing, Rn, medical assistants, dental hygienists, we do again, the medical and skill training, welding, constructing building. We also have things in the area of computer science, even law and transportation, we do legal assistants, paralegals, we basically have reinvented ourselves so that we are very close to being a community college, offering courses that you know, not just people in our community, but people throughout the state of Delaware able now to access. So we have continuously been moving working to improve we partner with not only the Department of Labor, but Delaware department of health and social services. And we also receive funding from grants and, and foundations. We are proud of what we have done and proud of what we have become all of those courses that we now offer all of them. You know the when you graduate you graduate with a certification, transferable skills, you can use them anywhere you go. If you relocate to any place in the country, you have that certification in that particular field. So we have no constantly been improving, constantly been working. And again, there is a very strong community base. behind all of this, we have people from the community to volunteer. And we make sure that we focus first and foremost on people from the community. So that’s our story. We are proud of what we’ve done and always welcome the opportunity to tell that story. 

Kellman 21:25 

Thank you Terrence. Renaye Manley is the deputy director of strategic initiatives for the Service Employees International Union. And they and I go back a long way. In those years I was training to organizers one was in Chicago. His name was Barack Obama, another was renamed family in Northwest Indiana. Rene still organizing I think Brock is just writing books right now. So Renee is going to talk about three different experiences. One is as the lead organizer for interfaith worker justice, she saw the emergence of immigrant worker centers throughout the country. In recent years, she’s been a moving force for hiring black worker centers, particularly in Chicago, in Englewood. And with SEIU, part of the workforce of SEIU or people who, who go into homes, do homecare, traditionally, with not being paid what they are now with the conditions and rights they need. And so Renaye will bring to us kind of perspective on the rights of workers and, and how we how we begin to address those in this situation. Thanks 

Manley 22:36 

Oh, Jerry Kellman. Thank you for that. So, as Jerry said, my name is Renae Manley, and I just want to thank NCRC Jerry, my good friend Jane Ashman, who’s on the board of NCRC, for this invitation today. And I just really want to recognize Carlos and Reverend Keeling for the amazing work that their two organizations are doing I love hearing those stories about the community-based work that they’re doing. I used to want to go back to my early days as a community organizer, way back when I did my first Community Reinvestment Act training. Way back if many of you who aren’t might be a little older. Remember, shale trap and Gale CATIA, back in NCIC. When gene is human and I did our first Community Investment Act agreement in Northwest Indiana back before they had casinos. You know, they were, we were able to leverage and get that first agreement done. And when Jerry had me doing one on ones in Northwest Indiana, with my church, which was a part of the organization where we were organizing, and my pastor was one of the primary leaders of that organization. And, you know, I bring all of that into this round, because, basically, you know, all of the organizing that we do all the organizing the NCRC, does all the organizing, the services that Carlos and Reverend Keeling talked about, is really about how do we build power? You know, how are we able to build power for workers? How are we able to build power for communities, how are we able to get things done for folks in our communities, because quite frankly, if, if things are the way they always have been, then they don’t need us, we don’t need to be around. And we might as well be, you know, one of those groups that Jeremy talked about that are kind of part of the status quo. Because if you know, it, we can help them win anything, we don’t need to be around, people don’t need our help to lose, people situations are bad enough, without having another group around, who’s basically you know, just going to talk the same talk, and not gonna move anything and not gonna get anything done. Quite frankly, they don’t need to come to another meeting, they don’t need to be in another room call on another conference call, they don’t need to sign another petition for another group who’s not going to be effective. You know, there’s too much going on, we got a pandemic, people, you know, are trying to hold on to their jobs, they’re worried about their kids, they’re managing, you know, virtual schooling and, you know, trying to figure out, you know, what they’re doing as an essential worker facing, you know, dangerous situations, and they’re trying to make a living, they need somebody who’s going to deliver, or at least going to try to deliver. And that’s how, and so we got to be about how we use these situations, how we use these circumstances, how we’re using our community power to deliver for the folks in our communities. And that’s what I hear when I hear Carlos when I hear Reverend killing, and that’s what I learned as a community organizer. So it’s really not about the money, it really starts from the power. And that’s what you know, I want to bring into this conversation today. Because, um, that’s when we started black worker centers. That’s really what it was about, we felt that black workers didn’t really have power and still don’t have power. Right? And this is about how are we building power for black workers, who are facing kind of a racialized political economy, where they are exploited because of their race, and because of their class? And so how are we going to develop unique ways to reflect how black workers are being impacted? And how are we going to change things for black workers? How are we going to look up the importance of black workers, and the only way that we saw to be able to do that, or the most effective way that we sought to be able to do that is by organizing a collective voice for black workers in the workplace. And by working together to change public policy by basically black worker centers, and bringing together progressive elements of the black community, like church leaders, like progressive elected officials, like, you know, like workers themselves, and formulating these policy solutions. Um, you know, and black union members, I’m sorry, so to formulate these policy solutions, and we have to route black worker centers, and the network of black communities and black essential networks because there’s a, you know, robust and progressive and effective network that gets things done, gets things done, and black communities and all we have to do with the brain goes folks together. And I can tell you that your board member Jean ism, and she’s one of the most effective community organizers I know, you may not call herself that but she’s in the back rooms, and in the front rows making deals and she can get things done. And, and, and respecting also, you know, the gender and other impacts of diversity around issues in the black community, which is something that we often don’t think about, but we are intentional about bringing it into the conversation. So, so as we’re doing this and thinking about this, at the time when we’re formulating the black worker centers, you know, I’m Jerry mentioned, I’m working at interfaith worker justice, who has a network of immigrant worker centers flow might be asking. So Renee, why do we have to do black worker centers, there was already a group of immigrant worker centers, why couldn’t you know, the black workers can, you know, be integrated into the immigrant worker center experience? Well, I’m going to tell you why. The, I think the popular narrative was that, um, immigrant worker centers. And the philtrum, running, always offered up the day were available to black workers. And I believe that that was true. But when we talk to black workers on the brown, they did not feel that the immigrant worker centers were as were welcoming to them. And then there was an issue that a lot of the black workers that we were talking to, a lot of them had status issues, a lot of ex-offenders, um, quite frankly, our returning citizens. And the immigrant worker Center at the time, we’re talking maybe about 10 years ago, we’re not as equipped to handle that issue issues on criminal justice issues, returning citizen issues, or black ex-offenders, which were really a little different than the immigrant. And citizenship issues of immigrant workers, they just did not have that experience, they did not have the expertise around those issues. And then a lot of the immigrant worker centers were really focused on wage theft, and wage stuff for immigrant workers shows up a little differently than it shows up for ex-offenders who are African American. For immigrant workers at the time, a lot of the wage stuff was showing up in for instance, like, employers would just disappear, or employers just wouldn’t pay workers, for black workers at the time. That was not how wage that was a current wage. That was more around misclassification, for example, saying that they were independent contractors instead of employees, or paying them under the table, and cash instead of, you know, giving them a paycheck, I’m making them work like 60 hours a week at a regular pay rate. And so they’ve given him overtime, and things like that, um, some of that happening to immigrant workers as well, but just showing up a little different for black workers. So um, so those were some of the reasons and certainly was not rooted in kind of a black worker cultural experience, which was really important as well. And so, um, so those were some of the reasons why we felt that a space that really weren’t rooted and grounded and black worker experienced black communities needed a separate space.  And we think that, you know, this is about over 10 years, we think it was clearly the right decision, and have been working and collaborating with our brothers and sisters in the immigrant worker center. And in other ethnic worker centers over these past years. So it’s been an exciting development has we have learned to work together and share our experiences in the worker center movement. So one of the things I will say about how we build power, is that, you know, when somebody wants to exploit you, they don’t care who you are, because it’s about again, it’s about power. And one of the things that we saw was these employers with, you know, try to play the immigrant workers are the Latino workers against the black workers who have status issues, right. So they would like they were threatened to call immigration on Latino workers who maybe had immigration issues, they were threatened to call parole or probation, on, you know, black workers who may have had, you know, some status issues or, or whom, as we say, in the hood, were on paper. So they knew what they were doing. Employers knew what they were doing, and they were trying to play communities off of each other. They would, you know, we would see employers who would have a preference for hiring, for instance, immigrant workforces, as opposed to African American workers. And so those kinds of things were happening to become employers. Were at Attempting to exploit workers and playing them off of each other. And so that was a key component of why it workers needed to know what was going on. And we did not allow them to play off of each other workers needed to know their rights. So one of the essential components of the worker centers, both the immigrant worker centers and the African American worker centers, making sure workers knew their rights. And when we talk about knowing your rights is knowing everything from what is the minimum wage, because we have workers who didn’t know that the knowing, you know, health and safety rules and violations, people didn’t know that, um, to knowing what is sexual harassment, because we had young women working and no community based retail establishments who did not know what sexual harassment is, or worse. So those kinds of know, your rights trainings, which are still going on today, with African American workers centers are really important. So when you hear all of this worker centers as a worker, community-based worker advocacy organization for immigrant workers, for African Americans, you say, well, this sounds a lot like the union. Right? Yeah, they do. They don’t have maybe collective bargaining agreements, but they’re advocating for justice in communities, for workers who don’t have a collective bargaining agreement. And I think, you know, um, as I, you know, work for SEIU, and I see our work around five or 15, our basketball campaign, I’m so many elements of the work that I’ve done, um, for the worker centers, I see that they, you know, evident in some of these other campaigns, but I just want to, you know, transition us a little bit to how we see, you know, the care industry, and opportunities there. Because when you look at the care, industry, childcare, senior care, you know, we see 1000s of boomers, baby boomers, turning 65 every year. Now, the demographics of this country are becoming older, and we want to boomers want to maintain their independence, they want to stay home. And it’s better for the community-based care is where we should be going, it saves money, and it helps people maintain their independence. But what hasn’t happened is that these the care industry jobs have not provided either the type of training and the type of pay to encourage people to seek the type of profession that is a profession. And I will go back to last April, and last March, in the throes of the pandemic. If y’all remember when the term essential workers was first coined, y’all remember that When healthcare workers and delivery drivers, and world’s restored clerks were all seen as heroes, and they were nursing home workers, and they were given all of this extra pay of sick leave, Hazard pay all of that disappear, probably in about four or five months. Right. But these people were putting their lives on the line going out every day, to provide essential services. Well, that’s basically what’s going on in the care industry, right, because home care workers were going out and taking care of folks every day. Um, either way, nursing home workers were going out literally showing up for work, even when those nursing homes were on lockdown. When you can go see grandma, both nursing home workers had to go in there and that those were the hottest spots during the pandemic. And so we have to invest and care that we have to invest in care personnel, we have to invest in making sure that those jobs are professionalized. We have to make sure that we are recruiting people into those jobs, and we have to make sure that those people get paid. Because we, you know, want to avoid having, you know, in 10 years from now, five years from now, people institutionalized in skilled nursing facility We want to be able to keep folks at home in their communities as independent as possible. And the way we do that is by increasing the number of homecare providers who are able to go in and make sure that you have whoever has everything that they need to be able to stay independent in their homes. Um, how does that training occur? Where does that money come from? You know, um, you know, that’s part of the kind of soft infrastructure that we talked about in the Biden infrastructure plan. But I think there may be other opportunities, too, to look at how we build training for those type of jobs, for security personnel, you know, you think about how that’s gonna change in a post-pandemic environment, you know, used to go into the office building, in a downtime in an urban area, and you have to show your ID to get signed into the building, maybe now, those security guards may have to do a security may have to do a temperature check. Or they may have to limit how many people go into the elevator together, you know, there may be some additional skills training that has to be done with those folks. You think about a building janitor, or a janitor at an airport, you know, joins a pandemic, an imposed pandemic, you know, they have to have extra training because they have to monetize, you know, built facilities in a different type of way. So that type of training, and how we skill up those folks in a way that keeps them safe and keep the public safe is really important. So you know, there are opportunities to raise up the level of those jobs that would typically are low wage jobs, which typically are very, maybe very gender, and how we look at them with a lot of women, primarily people of color. But again, if we are building power, through the union, through pushing through advocacy, through policy, as we build power, we can change the situation for these workers, through the worker centers where we’re changing policy, and we’re increasing and making a difference for black workers. And that’s really what it’s about at the end. How do we change the situation for workers so that workers are not exploited, so they’re not taken advantage of? And so when we say they’re essential, they’re being treated like they’re essential? Well, thank you. 

Kellman 41:15 

Okay, I’m gonna make a couple of points, then we’ll open up for questions. We’re in effect inviting you to work with us to create a workforce program in your community, as part of a coalition or as part of your organization. And those workforce programs can look very different. One from another. As you heard from Terrence and Renaye, and from Carlos, there’s there’s different models. I mentioned pre-apprenticeship and with unions, Renaye is talking about home workers can establish work training program for them. On the southwest side of Philadelphia, with Southwest CDC, looking at public housing residents and the Philadelphia Housing Authority. We’re in Tampa, Florida, the city and the major corporations are talking in again, in Philadelphia, the district attorney who’s trying to reform the criminal justice system from the inside, is looking at creating an RJ restorative justice center of Peace Center modeled after the model of Chicago, linking up at-risk young adults and folks who’ve been incarcerated to jobs, so you can design it, according to your community and the relationships there. The second thing I want to mention is just to talk about how we evolved into this. About eight years ago, we began our growth program, which is now we having about $100 billion worth of houses a year nationally, and at Gorman who’s our Director of Development as an experience both firsthand, and he thought we would train people construction. While we have the houses that didn’t work. We hired by passenger cars, not here this morning. But Bob had been at one point the advisor for the New York State Department, adult education in New York State uses that 135 million of SNAP Employment and Training funds and each year and a half of a 15 years. Compare that to Ohio which is less than 5 million or two Pennsylvania which was less than 5 million. So we began to figure out Why that sources being used and get and begin to get it used in a grassroots way. And it’s matches dollar for dollar other dollars you have. So working with USDA working with state Human Services Department, there’s an opportunity here for really to expand the kinds of organizations offering workforce training to populations that are really being ignored by a by a one-stop model run by the state or by the college. So let’s see if you have any questions and thank you for being here this morning. Okay, so I’ll ask the questions. Sorry, I’m not seeing see on the board. Is that right? Okay. So I guess anyone can take this one. What what is it that, you know, we were finding that minority populations women? Are the programs allocated funds for instruction offered nationally? If so, can you direct me into specific specifically for Ohio? 

I’ll take that one. That’s from us, Moore’s. So no, they there’s it’s national funding, but it will come through through job and Family Services and Ohio. thing is they’re not using the program now. So wherever you are, if you want to work with us, we will work with the UN JFS to begin to get a program approved. We’ve just been Huntington bank as part of their renewed CBA agreement has agreed to fund workforce efforts of NCRC in Ohio. And we’ll use those funds to work with you to offer technical assistance and to convince the state we’ll be working in different places. I’m particularly working right now in Columbus and in higher Appalachia. But wherever you are, start with us. And we’ll try to navigate you through the process with JFS at the state level, and then with USDA at the national level. And question from an How do you see current funding playing into the mix? So AARP funding, so the American leaf leaf act, I assume, and it’s talking about, um, so I think we don’t get the money. Unless we fight for it. I go back to Rene’s point of view, they will give it to the same old they will keep taking the money Terrence can tell stories, right? They won’t perform. They won’t reach the populations, but they’ll keep getting the money. I’m sorry to be so negative about this. I’m pleased for the act. So I think if we organize and we organize in Connecticut, we can change that. And, yeah, so American Recovery and clarified. We can change that we have to we have to fight for the dollars. I think that I mean, Carlos can tell that that even Tom Wolfe, who’s to where we work with, when he tried to put more money and didn’t give it to Latino community. He gave it to the same old, same old folks. Now, the other thing I want to mention not so much in this act, but I think we have to, we have to factor in infrastructure. There’s there is already a huge infrastructure need. There’d be a lot of infrastructure money coming along. And we know that the Joe Biden find infrastructure much more broadly than the republicans would. So those dollars are there. The question is, will they reach the African American Latino communities? Because they won’t, I’m telling you unless we organize both as unions, as grassroots organizations and advocacy groups. So I think the opportunities are there, but we have to start strategizing and organizing right now. I’m gonna go I’m gonna ask question, Chloe, if it was another one, you’re going to send. Okay. So why is it that the, the folks you work with, why do you think they’re reluctant to go to the large one stop state centers? What is it about those senators and what is it about these alternative models that might be might be more effective? And I think each of you have an opinion about that. So let me start with Carlos and ask each of you to respond briefly. To that, what is it about the tech central Carlos, versus the One Stop that makes people want to be there? 

Graupera 48:32 

Well, I think that the career links are serving and are being located in areas where they serve county wide populations, which means that oftentimes, they’re not in the city, and they’re not in the neighborhoods of need. So people have a problem getting there. The other thing is comfort. You want to walk into a building where people look like you. They speak your primary language, and has have a sensitivity as to what your particular needs are. I think those are the basic drawbacks. These community base, a base centers are located in the neighborhood, they are staffed with people that look like the the people that are ringing the doorbell trying to get in. And that makes all the difference, I believe, 

Kellman 49:28 

Terrence and then Renaye to the same question. 

Keeling 49:37 

Yeah, I think Carlos is is right, I think it’s the location, you know, with his thing about what we do is we’re in the community. We are community located community connected, able to hear what’s going on and respond. And people feel, you know, there’s a sense of trust. And I think that that is vitally important in not just what we do, but anytime you’re, you’re trying to address the issues that we’re all talking about.  

Kellman 50:09 

Renaye? 

Manley 50:10 

Yeah, I agree. And I also think that the cultural competency issues and something not to be underestimated, you know, people who kind of understand and can really relate to some of the barriers and filter debates are facing in terms of their, their participation in these programs is really important. And, you know, having that, that community, relationship and basis of trust, as Reverend Keeling said, is is not to be underestimated. In terms of, you know, gaming, that participation, and folks who really want who are invested in your success, you know, like truly invested in your success. That is really important. 

Kellman 51:03 

Thank you. So let’s talk about fundraising. I don’t know a better advocate for social justice than John Taylor, who shouldn’t you retire from NCRC after founding us, but that wasn’t just a strong advocate, he raised money. And if we don’t raise money, we can’t do this stuff. So let’s talk about you experienced raising monies for your job training programs, what are the worker centers, and then we’ll make some comments there. And whoever wants to go first on that one. 

Keeling 51:32 

I can certainly talk about difficulties raising money, the first couple of years, it was a matter of being recognized, you know, there’s that old, good old boys network that a people who always get funded, always get funded. And we were new and trying to break in, had to make some inroads. That was a difficult thing to do, and is always the bureaucracy of dealing with some of the agencies that that we had to deal with, who had their favorites that we had to break in and, you know, get become, you know, when they recognize us or realize that, you know, we were being effective. One of the things that did help was when Bob came along and see RC, and we started to show them the funds, they will leave it on the table due to SNAP program. And that’s really what gave us the inroads and gave us a chance to prove what we could do. 

Kellman 52:38 

Renaye, Carlos on fundraising. Jump in please. 

Manley 52:46 

I will say that, for the black market center, I think that, um, you know, we face the dilemma of serving black communities and being led by black people, which is, you know, this creates a whole dynamic in, in the fundraising world. And I think that as we’re, you know, really focused on how we build power. folks wanted us to maybe divert more to providing services and we were very committed that we wanted to feel our organizing model As a parallel to whether or not we provided services that that was our primary focus. And, you know, in the early days, we got a lot of pushback. I think, you know, in the last two years, certainly, it’s been a lot easier for black-led organizations, since there’s been a reckoning around racial justice. But, um, quite frankly, it shouldn’t have taken that for our fundraisings to evolve. And so, you know, hopefully, you know, there will be, you know, funders who will, you know, we calibrate on some of their past practices, or around funding or organizations who have led by people of color. 

Kellman 54:13 

And Carlos, my first post that began talking, I think he was even resistant to taking government money, he’d built this up, tech centers out on private dollars. So we’ll talk about that for a minute, Carlos. 

Graupera 54:26 

Well, I was speaking with a legislator this morning and telling, telling him that, you know, for the last seven years, we’ve been nickel and diming things in which is okay, when you get started, but that’s no longer acceptable. Too much work has been done in our community, to address the issue of workforce development. And we have business at the table, we have local officials set the table is time for the state to take a significant role here. I’ll let you know how that goes. How that conversation goes later. But in the meantime, so as not to not to be too confident, and what government can do and the bureaucracy can do, we have set up a foundation. And we are slowly building it up with help from our corporate partners and, and fill up philanthropic friends. And we want to get to a $10 million fund that will pay for roughly a third of the operation of our facility. And we’ve got a long way to go. Needless to say, but we have gotten started. And we’ll continue to push that. That foundation forward.  

 Kellman 55:55 

So sometimes you succeed to place people in jobs, and they don’t, don’t get retained. And often that’s put it on the employee. But in fact, they don’t get retained because of what’s happening in the workplace, the employees. And so if we’ve kind of, I’m gonna give everybody a last word, but I want to, I want to say that we’re doing two things here, we’re actually trying to deliver jobs for people helping them make take another step in their life, it’s technical work, it has to be accurate, they need all that stuff. But that’s a foundation for organizing. That’s the foundation to challenge the direction work is going in the in the United States and to building a base to do that with banks on the people. So each have a minute for last word, and I’m let’s start with Renaye and go the other direction. And we just a one minute no more. 

Manley 56:44 

Yes. So, um, we, again, we have to build power, and we have to challenge power. Um, you know, one way we’re challenging power, is holding financial institutions accountable for the impact. So their core business practices at SEIU, you know, we file shareholder resolutions calling for racial equity audits, where they have to engage community stakeholders on the impact of their core business practices. I know, we’ve talked to Jesse and other folks at ncrc about this. But we also want to make sure that they’re engaging the right community stakeholders so that folks can take advantage of these opportunities and really talk to, you know, these financial institutions about what the community needs are. And I think that’s a really unique opportunity in these days and times to engage. 

Keeling 57:35 

So I’ll be brief. Upskill, the people that we started out serving with people who did not have jobs, the people we’re serving now, people who have jobs who realize that they need more skills, and certifications in order to not only advanced but the way things are changing. So workforce itself is changing, and there is more of a need for what we do now than ever.  

Kellman 58:03 

Carlos?

Graupera 58:04 

Yeah, we have to be as community-based centers to be a second chance system, third chance system, the light is always on. If you if your placement holds and it’s good, great. We won’t see you again. But if something happens, you come back and I think that’s the value that We bring to the table. The other side of that is that we can serve, to educate the employer community as to changes that they need to make to retain their workers. We get a lot of complaints from the restaurant, business sector that they can’t find people, but we tell them, look what you’re paying. You’re going to continue to have this problem unless you get people in sustainable incomes. 

Kellman 58:55 

Thank you for joining us today and we’ll be working in these communities along with you. God bless Take care. Thank you. 

The widening chasm between incomes and affordable homeownership has its roots in the single biggest problem affecting owned homes — a lack of affordable inventory.  The problem has gotten so severe that only an effort on the scale of this country’s rebuilding after WW2 will meet the need.  We can do this and we’ll explore how in this session. We will discuss President Biden’s infrastructure plan and cite other legislative issues that may be relevant, such as the NSP-2 revival in two pieces of recent legislation.

Speakers:

• Phillip Bracken, Managing Director, VantageScore Solutions
• Marisa Calderon, Executive Director, CDFI and Chief, Community Finance and Mobility, NCRC
• Ed Gorman, Chief, Community Development, NCRC
• Selma Hepp, Deputy Chief Economist, Corelogic
• Kara Ward, Partner, Holland & Knight LLP

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Gorman 00:05 

Good afternoon, welcome to the session entitled “Our Homeownership Moonshot: Building 20 Million Homes by 2030.” This session is designed to bring to the fore, and to discuss both the sort of status of the problem and solutions that we believe need to be brought to bear on what we think is one of the greatest problems affecting the American American economy, and opportunities for people to build wealth in this country, namely, the lack of homeownership inventory in the country and what we need to do about it. So this idea, that moonshot idea essentially tracks what President Kennedy did in 1961, when he announced that we put a man on the moon by our men on the moon by the end of the decade, we that we need that kind of an investment here. Because without it, we will continue to see an upside-down housing market, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime, even in the heyday of the bubble before 2008. I don’t think we had as much shortage of inventory as we do now. How do we get here we have four terrific speakers, for you to talk about how we got here, what the state of things is, and how we move forward. First Selma Hepp, who is one of the leading housing economist in the country, and is that core logic, I think she’s uniquely positioned to kind of give us a level set on where we stand right now with inventory. And sort of how we got here, followed by Kara Ward. Kara is a former Treasury official, who now advises folks on both sides of the political aisle about the need to do more in the housing and housing, finance space, and what kinds of policies she thinks we need to be thinking about. But she’s also tracking current policy now and we thought it’d be helpful to hear kind of what the state of current policy is followed by Marisa Calderon, our CDFI Executive Director. Before that, she was the executive director of the National Association of Hispanic real estate professionals. She is uniquely positioned to talk about homeownership, both from the need to build back better from an infrastructure level, but also in particular, to talk about communities of color, and how we need to focus on supporting communities of color in their efforts to get to gain homeownership opportunities. They are the principal victims of this current crisis. And then finally, Phil Bracken, a longtime friend of NCRC, former head of government affairs for Wells Fargo, currently, the head of government affairs for vantagescore. Really a guy who understands the mortgage industry understands the housing industry, as well as anybody in the country. So we have an all star panel for you. I am looking forward to this and we will when we finished Back to q&a. I hope we get a lot of questions from you. Because I think it should be a robust conversation. But now, if I may, let me start with Selma Hepp. Selma, take it away. 

Hepp 03:28 

I’m not sure if I was on mute or not. But thank you for having me. I have a number of slides to share with you. I hope you find this information. Interesting. But I do believe that this group is, is wonderful to be presenting on this topic. So I really look forward to participating a little bit later in our discussion. So with that, I’m going to share my slides here. Just give me one quick second. Okay, share my slides. Okay. Do you guys see my slides? I’m sorry. It’s kind of switching between the Yes. Okay, you can see my slides. Okay, going back to the slides. Alright. So what I’m going to talk about is, what’s going on with the inventory, I have some data on millennials and their affordability challenges as well as their participation currently in the market, I have some data on what’s happening with forbearances, and how they may play out in terms of future inventory. And that’s, that’s all from my slide. So I’ll pass it over back to Ed after that. But um, the slide you’re looking at here is the inventory of homes for sale number of single-family homes for sale in light blue line. So this is the MLS data, this is the number of homes that have been available going back to 1982. For Sale. You can see here that over the last few years, that number has been declining, and it actually has been declining over the last decade, but especially took a dip in the last year in 2020. When looking at what the average for an availability of single-family homes for sale has been historically, or at least going back to 1982, it averaged 1.9 million, which is the red line going across. And you can see here that we’re currently below even below the 1 million so we’re more than 50% below what the historical averages. On the other hand, if you look at the dark blue line, which represents the number of households in the US, that number has been trending up. Naturally, the more population we have, the more households we have. And so the discrepancy between the two, which I’m going to show you in this slide here is even more evident when you put it. It’s basically the same information in this slides just presented differently. But what I’m showing you here is, by decade, the change in housing inventory, this is all housing inventory available out there, and the change in population. And so where the picture becomes more stark is over the last three decades, where you can see that we’re adding 33 million people, 27 million people, 20 million people, but at the same time, we’re adding only about 10 to 13 million new households. So in other words, over the last two decades, we added twice more than twice as many people than the number of housing units. And that wasn’t the case prior to 2000. As you can see, on the left, the left three sets of bars, there was much more balanced relationship between housing inventory and total population. Now since the beginning of the pandemic, so this is now just focusing on the last couple of years of data. And it’s a year-over-year percentage change in new listings. So newly available inventory that comes online, and then active inventory. So that’s everything that’s available online. And a couple of things to point out here. First, the light blue line is active inventory, and suggests that even at the beginning of 2020, we were trending at about 10% below previous years. inventories and that’s consistent with the slider. couple slides I showed you previously. And then but then the darker blue line shows you what’s happening with new listings. And you can see that with the onset of the pandemic in March of 2020. The number of new listings drops precipitously down 50% on a year-over-year basis. And it starts picking up somewhere in later second part of last year. And this is again when you think on a year-over-year basis. So it’s not still contributing significantly to the active inventory because the active inventory is declining at the same time overall inventory. The listings take a dip again in the end at the end of the year. Ah, that has to do with more cases. You know, when we were ending last year, the beginning of the year, it was sort of height of the pandemic, new infections. And this is where the new listings took another large dip. And then in April of this year, we see a 41% increase in new listings, which, in theory is it’s a positive number. And it seems like we’re making progress. Nevertheless, this is comparing on a year-over-year basis. So this is comparing to last April. And if you look at that 50% of decline last year, it’s it’s you know, what they’ve been calling the base effects special now in recent discussion about inflation, they’re talking about base effects. So when you compare it to things that happened last year, you have to take into consideration that the economy and the housing market came to almost a full stop. So it’s not necessarily the most effective way to look at the inventory information by looking at last year’s level. So what I’m doing here in the next slide is I’m comparing the new listings to what they were they were in April of 2018. And picture unfortunately, is pretty much the same, where I’m showing the metros with largest declines metros with smallest declines overall, pretty much all the metros have had declines, compared even to 2018 numbers. But some metros obviously had a much, much larger decline as much as 50%. And those tend to be the areas where we’ve seen most increase in demand or lack of a new construction supply. So Kansas City has been one of those cities that fared pretty well during the recession, for various reasons. But then we have Texas, there is the affordability, the affordability opportunity for some people moving from other parts of the country. And then we have some markets in California that are relatively more affordable to say, LA and San Francisco. And then we have a markets where people generally have been attending to move out in recent years Tampa, Austin, Raleigh, North Carolina. And they’re on the other hand, here you’re looking at where, where lesser inventory declines are in there in areas that are either more expensive, such as San Jose, Silicon Valley, or you have, for example, New York City, and then you have, for example, baton, Baton Rouge, which actually has been hard hit by the five hurricanes last year, so so there’s been a lot of much more movement in terms of people moving in and out. So the inventory decline is lesser. Now, the slide that I’m showing you here is inch its inventory by price range. So 50 to 75% represents those homes that are in 50 to 75%, of median home price in that area. And then it goes all the way to 175 to 200. So our affordable range is highlighted here in yellow. That’s the entry-level supply. And you can see the decline from the pre-pandemic darker blue blue times to lighter blue March 2021. But what’s interesting here that even the higher-priced inventory, which is outside this yellow square, they have declined just as much or actually technically more on a relative basis. And all of them now are currently two months supply or less. So basically, that’s saying in two months, everything that’s currently available for sale would sell out. And why it’s important to look at the higher-priced inventory and decline in availability in that price range is because oftentimes, as the prices come down in higher price ranges, it trickles down to having more affordable more inventory at the lower price levels. But because inventory supply is tied at all price ranges, there is clearly no opportunity there even to hope for some trickle down to entry-level supply. Now, another thing, so we’re looking at most of the data up to this point has been about on existing home sales, there’s been quite a bit of new construction and new construction activity has picked up pace, particularly since the drops, or trough we saw post-Great Recession. And it’s only now at about the level at about our average level of last several decades. But there is quite a bit of discrepancy in the rate of new construction across the country. So in some markets, particularly in the south, it’s 50 it’s getting 50% of new construction and areas for example in on the west or mountain states where we’ve seen a lot of demand recently there hasn’t been A lot of new home construction. So that’s important to keep in mind when we’re thinking about new construction is that it’s not happening equally everywhere and in areas where we most needed. So the bars here on the right-hand side are showing you growth in new home. A new home construction, this is annual percent growth, this is at the last quarter of last year compared to 2019. And what stands out is that the metros that are affordable, that have high employment growth and have or have outdoor amenities to have had the highest growth in new home sales over the last year. So again, areas that there is more new construction are getting more employment, and hence are in the slide and I’m going to show you a sorry, I’m going to skip to this slide real quick because it’s it’s a very key slide. So it’s, this is a correlation slide with showing you on the bottom. on the x axis, it’s showing you the ratio of employment growth, to housing permit growth. And basically, the more the higher the ratio, the closer you’re coming to 200%. That means you’ve added more employment, then you have added housing units. on the y axis, its cumulative price growth over the last nine years. So the states that are highlighted in the red, in the red circle are areas that have more employment growth relative to number of housing units added and hence higher home price appreciation. So when we think for going forward in terms of where or how are we going to slow down the home price appreciation, the system in thinking about sustainability of home price appreciation they’ve seen over the last year, it’s not only coming, it’s not only going to come from existing inventory. But as you can see, new inventory is key in keeping that home price growth at a sustainable level. Um, I think I don’t have a lot of time. So I’m going to just skip the slides that I skipped earlier. But talking a little bit about what is the driver between behind these, these, this high demand for homes. Obviously, we’ve talked a lot about what’s happening with millennials. You’re looking at here population distribution by age. And in like last year, so last year, the bars in red represent millennial population that is between age 28 and 30. And they currently represent the largest age cohort in the country. The green bar is the median age of first-time homebuyers. So as you’ve heard, probably through many media reports recently, the millennial or just caught a millennial I just call age cohort being Millennials are approaching that key median first time home buying age. And that is why in addition to having a high demand from second-home buyers, we’ve seen a large increase from millennial buyers and first-time buyers. And this actually comes in a little bit more clear in this chart. We’re here on charting home purchase loan application by cohort over the last six years. And if you follow the red arrow, you can see the share of millennials went from 33% in 2014 to 54% in 2020. So now on an annual basis, that increase has been about three to four percentage points. But between 2019 and 2020, that increase was about seven percentage points. So on one hand, we would have anyway seen two to three to four percentage points because that’s where the trends were going in terms of millennial but potential you can think about it as demand that was pulled forward in 2020. From demand that would have happened later in later years, because of the pandemic because of the need for more space moving out to suburbs, low mortgage rates, and so a number of factors that really are provided for a very, very favorable environment for those that can afford. So that those were that the ones that can afford now let’s move to talk about the ones who are struggling. So the slide here is showing you what a household would need to come up with for three to 3% down payment for median price home in this areas versus 10% down payment for a medium price home. And then the red line is what the median financial asset holdings are families headed by those under 35 years of age. So you can see that generally they have only about 85 $100 in savings, but the amount of money that they need to come up for a down payment is much larger. Particularly if you’re thinking about 10% down payment. So the 10% down payment is the dark blue line. 3% is his lighter blue line.   

Gorman 18:25 

Selma Hi. On screen because they I think we need to transition. 

Hepp 18:34 

Okay. Okay, so I’m so sorry.  

Gorman 18:36 

No, no it is quite all right. Let me just say, folks, I mean, this is, first of all, some presentation is rich in detail. And some I hope we can share the slides with the audience. Is that all right? No, because it is an amazing presentation. And there’s so much more to it. But you know, I just as a segue to Kara. You know, I think what I folks should take away from this is, so we’re not building we haven’t been building since the 1970s. Particularly not affordable housing units. The last time I saw the numbers, it was 425,000 a year of affordable units back in the 70s. We’re only building 60,000 a year of affordable units now. So when you take that and couple it with what you’re showing in terms of demographics, this is like it’s almost like a tsunami crashing on the shore. Of course, you’re going to be these impacts. So anyway, so I thank you very much. 

Hepp 19:33 

And I would gladly share the slides. And anybody has any questions, 

Gorman 19:36

Folks should come back and ask questions at the end. I now want to introduce, thank you. I want to do care award. And I want to before I do just say Kara has been one of the folks that we have really leaned on very heavily over the last couple of years as we’ve developed the affordable homeownership coalition, which is a bipartisan coalition focused on homeownership and affordable homeownership, particularly, and, and sort of without her help and guidance. And Phil has been involved, and Kirk Wilson and of course, John Taylor, and others, and we’ve had the Home Builders at various times in the the the real estate professionals as well. But the but truthfully care has been a huge reason why we’ve had any success with AC. So let me introduce Kara Ward, Kara, thank you for your contribution here. And I’ll get out of get off screen. 

Ward 20:28 

Well, thanks for the warm introduction, Ed. One of the things I wanted to bring up with his audiences is for topics that are in the discussions about housing policy and homeownership in Washington, DC right now, I’m going to keep it to four, but there’s probably a lot more that we could talk about. I’m gonna start with the first two items, which is related to the late March released by President Biden. In his 38 page overview of the American jobs plan, some people were referring to this as the infrastructure package. embedded in that plan isn’t anticipated $200 billion of new spending on housing details were a little sparse in the proposal, but close observers are familiar with the concepts in the proposal, and recognize these ideas from draft legislation that’s been circulating in Congress for a couple of months or years. So while the $200 billion of new spending is doubling the amount that house democrats passed in a symbolic vote in June 2020, known as the housing it’s infrastructure act, provisions related to single-family housing and homeownership. Were not originally in that infrastructure package. So anything that we’re talking about here on homeownership is additive and a relatively new idea. So the first of the four things I’m going to talk about is the neighborhood homes Investment Act that’s embedded as a reference in American jobs planned and it’s a $20 billion program. That’s a tax credit program covering the gap between the cost of building or renovating the homes, and the price at which it could be sold to an owner-occupant of modest means. So under this plan, a private developer would rehabilitate or place a family home in a low-income neighborhood, and then receive a competitively awarded tax credit if the home is sold to an owner-occupant for less than the price at which the renovation costs added up to more specifically, if the developers sell the home at no more than four times the local area median income, they’re able to be eligible for this competitively awarded tax credit. So rehabilitation costs in excess of the sales price would be covered by the tax credit, capped at 35% of the eligible cost. There’s a lot of details in this program that are worth going through. But the bottom line is that people expect that it’ll produce $500,000 homes, and it could be renewed if the take up on this program is successful and substantial. The second provision in the American jobs plan is the barriers to affordable housing development. So this is a mirror of a concept in a piece of legislation that’s been kicking around for about two or three years known as the housing supply. affordability act. And what it’s trying to do is create a carrot for local states for local governments and states to compete for grants through HUD if and conditioned upon the removal of regulatory barriers to affordable housing, like parking restrictions, accessory dwelling unit restrictions, single-family zoning restrictions, those sorts of concepts or, or other kinds of, of impediments to developing housing at an affordable rate is believed to be one of the ways to help encourage and lower the price of developing new properties. One of the things that’s that’s tough about this program and that people are cautiously excited about the housing supply provisions is that it’s really using a quote from a different colleague, it’s a carrot when sticks are needed. So while it’s trying to incentivize local governments to do something about regulatory barriers, local governments are generally populated by politicians who feel personally responsible for their communities in a way that they can adopt sometimes known as a nimbyism, not in my backyard concept. So advocates are incredibly important here to help motivate their localities, you know, the first place to advocate is on is in your front yard, in your front, in the front of your neighborhood and talk about you know, where and what kinds of growth you’d like to see in your communities. So while these two provisions, there’s a tax credit for developers, which really operates more like an insurance policy for a developer who’s trying to develop properties in low-income areas, and rehabilitate or construct something that could be helpful for modest means, individuals, it’s really an insurance policy against financial losses in that transaction. And the second is a grant program to try to get state and local governments to release or relieve some of the regulatory burdens. The other two items I wanted to talk about are more current in the design guess because they involve legislation that’s already passed. So the first item is cares act forbearances. So if you recall, one of the early COVID relief measures included no dock, as I call them, forbearances for federal loans, so that’s FHA, VA, USDA, and then Fannie and Freddie loans. It offered 12 months of forbearance extended to 18 months, and for the most part MBA has been tracking the Mortgage Bankers Association has been tracking the take up of this program, and at its height was about 8% of those borrowers. Today, it’s down to about four or 5%. But what happens to the families that come off of the forbearance program when they start to owe their mortgage payment again, and need to figure out what’s next. Some of the concepts that are floating around is a streamline refinance product, which is a 20-year loan that amortizes at a 30-year rate. So that would be a lower monthly payment with federal subsidies to help bring that rate down. In this environment, we’re traditionally low-interest rates, that could be helpful, but it may be a modest assistance. The second item or a fourth item, I should say, the second item that’s kicking around currently on it may not require legislation or new interpretation of legislation and use of regulatory authorities is this idea about owner occupancy restrictions. So we do anticipate that the sad circumstances of the end of the forbearance period and the way that the economy will recover is that some homeowners are going to find the need to downsize, downsize or relieve themselves of their current mortgage obligations and find new housing. So that means their house is going to go up on the market? Generally, that’s good. I mean, there’s new inventory available. First-time homebuyers move up homebuyers, everybody starts turning back through the mortgage process. However, there’s a significant concern that these houses are going to get eaten up by all cash buyers and these houses are going to be turned into rental properties, which doesn’t accrete to the benefit of a homeowner building equity and wealth through the home. So federal policy is looking at ways to try to reduce the attractiveness of the all cash buyer. There’s ways to do that probably in the way that Fannie Mae Freddie Mac or FHA, USDA, VA, disposition properties that are in their portfolio once they’re sort of foreclosed upon or deed in lieu or some sort of short sell back to them where they could prioritize owner-occupants. But more likely than not, there’s going to probably need to be some significant reinterpretation of the ability to market these properties in a what’s sometimes called a first look to actual owner-occupants over the all cash buyer who could promise to close in 10 days so maybe slowing down closing so that there’s No advantage to the all cash buyer is one available option that would be kind of manipulated through rules that apply to servicers through the state and some federal requirements. Those are four concepts that I just covered. And all of those kind of touch on the inventory issues. The federal government, I’ll say this, in closing, and typically is done, not much on inventory, or as we would say, supply side issues, they’re much better on demand issues, pricing issues. So they’re much better at figuring out ways to lower interest rates or improve down payments through tax credit, or make down payments, perhaps available through tax credits, or just subsidizing a 30 year fixed rate loan, who has 30 years to pay off anything. But they have traditionally not done a great job on making sure that there’s hammer swinging, and putting up brand new houses that are available for owner-occupants. It’s something that hadn’t happened in the past, probably prior to my birth, and prior to some of our most of our births, here. But in the baby boom generation, there were a number of kinds of ideas to try to get people to buy houses, in at affordable rates. And with an inventory that was available, that kind of thinking has to happen again, and the government should probably get back in the business of thinking about how it can bring back inventory. That’s been the role of this group that you’re you’re talking to today, the affordable housing, homeownership coalition. And I’ll turn it back over to my colleagues to talk about how that’s coming together and what the coalitions of support looks like.  

Calderon 29:47 

Great, thank you so much, Kara. So I’ll also talk through just a few different things. I’ll give you some context for the affordable homeownership coalition, the genesis of the moonshot proposal, as well as the state of homeownership in the country and the role that the black and Latino populations have to play in that. So a few years ago and CRC assembled this bipartisan alliance of the nation’s leading home mortgage lenders, home builders, real estate professionals, community development groups, civil rights organizations, and consumer advocates, none of whom are typical bedfellows, but all of whom are certainly committed to expanding homeownership opportunities for low and moderate-income individuals. And they collectively, this group recognizes that we really need to be for the good of the country and for our overall economy, we need to lead creation of more homes and more homeowners to really lift up socio-economic conditions for it, especially for low to moderate-income households, and for communities of color. So, you know, as the pandemic raged on, the affordable homeownership coalition noticed that, that we were certainly in this moment of reckoning, and that it could be a catalyst for good if we seize this moment. So you know, combined with the pandemic, the groundswell to address sort of racism, and, and really a lot of unprecedented divisiveness that was taking place in the country and still is, we recognize that, you know, that this absence of inventory is connected to so many other things and is really complicating economic conditions for us in the country. And in really, the last great housing push was post-World War Two. So a lot of folks are familiar with the GI Bill that certainly helped to lift a lot of white households out of whatever their economic circumstance was into the middle class, that was not something that was really able to be taken advantage of, by communities of color, because they were expressly prohibited and, and really systemically left out. So that’s part of the impetus of doing something big and bold and systemic, because that’s really what helped to live so many families into the middle class. And that kind of big bold action is what’s going to need to take place for that to happen yet again, for the rest of Americans. So early on, in our conversation Ed mentioned, the moonshot is building 20 homes by 2030. So why 20 million? It’s really that number. It represents roughly 50% increase over the high watermark for homebuilding over this last decade. And it’s really what is needed to be able to satisfy demand and to lift the rate of homeownership for the black and Latino communities, from their current levels up to 60%. So that’s kind of the genesis of where that figure comes from. So why affordable homeownership in particular why is that our focus? And you know, if you if you think about it from a purely nietos perspective, certainly no one dreams of being a renter immigrants don’t come in this country dreaming of finding a better life that doesn’t involve having a stake in the ground, a piece of the pie. So homeownership is really a fundamental first principle in the American dream, and that something should be extended to communities and will help as a primary source of American wealth-building for all communities. So in terms of the black and Latino contributions in the state of American homeownership, right now, there has been, you know, really a shortfall of homebuilding to date is, you know, some will kind of walk through some of the stats of what it’s looked like over the recent years. And the overall homeownership rate is predicted to drop by at least three percentage points by 2040. Now, that’s complicated by the fact that, of course, there’s inventory shortages. The demographics, though, do play a role in that. And for the past decade, you know, communities of color led by Latinos have been responsible for homeownership gains in the country. And, in fact, between 2020 and 2040, Urban Institute predicts that 70% of new homeowners are going to be Latino, and the other 30% are going to be largely other communities of color. So the growth in the country is really being driven by nonwhite individuals. And so we need to be able to understand what the needs are for those communities and to address those needs. And, and certainly, you know, being able to find an affordable home is a primary because if we address all of the, the, you know, appetite for consumption and the credit needs, and there isn’t inventory to purchase, then that’s, that’s an incomplete solution. So to give you a little bit of context for where we are right now, with homeownership rates as of 2020, the black and white homeownership rates, the gap there is a staggering 31%. And, and though the gap has narrowed between Latino and white homeownership rates, it’s still 27% gap. So the absence of that homeownership is part of a wealth equation for these communities is, is something that we’d certainly would like to be able to address through these innovations that we’re talking about. So I’m just moving on from there. And really, the inventory shortage is something that we’d like to be able to address, both in terms of homeownership preservation and new construction. So I’d love to be able to turn it back over to the rest of our group to be able to talk through some of the rest of the content and then for us to kind of have that q&a session.  

Bracken 36:08 

Thank you, Marisa, and Kara, and Selma for your comments. As Ed, kick this session off, by the way, I’m Phil Bracken, I am the managing director of vantagescore solutions. And I’m going to come back to the name vantagescore solutions in a moment. This entire session is about illuminating this crisis, and asking for your assistance in delivering solutions for for the consumers of America that where the pent up demand is just not meeting the demand for homeownership is not meeting its need because of the supply shortage. So let me just for a moment, many of you know that vantagescore Solutions is a wonderful credit score model development company, as many of you know, we know that we can score provide a credit score to 40 million consumers that can’t get one through traditional sources. Nearly 10 million of those people might be mortgage eligible with scores of 620 up and about 2.4 million of them would be black and Hispanic. While that’s great, wonderful, we’re expanding that the pool of progressive opportunity for homeowners. It’s also, you know, just one of the things that illuminates and crystallizes this crisis that we are in. The demand for homeownership is at its highest level in the last 10 years, maybe ever, with the lowest mortgage interest rates nearly ever. And when you have a situation like that with extraordinary demand and limited supply. It is a magnet for investors to come into this marketplace to purchase with Single Family residential properties for investment that to use for rental. To the owner-occupants, that would have been the people that would be purchasing these properties. That phenomenon is honest, and it’s a it is a crisis, there are things that can be done with intervention. One of the things that I wanted to just crystallize for for all of you. I’m thrilled to be part of NCR C’s long history, having spent 20 years participating in the mortgage collaborative group and the bankers collaborative. And my good friend, John Taylor, and I decided, at the behest of the mortgage collaborative, to start the start this affordable homeownership coalition. This problem in America is not going to get fixed without intervention. The following things that I’m going to mention are not policy positions of vantagescore. But I just wanted to mention them as they have emitted from the work of this coalition that works hard on defining these difficulties and identifying some of the challenges and maybe solutions, I only want to highlight just three or four things here, the first of which is acquisition, development and construction financing. For most of you that know the way this process works. Regulators impose restrictions on banks that make loans available to developers and builders to develop, to do the acquisition of land and development and construction of single-family homes. That process takes a number of years. In the Great Recession, the regulator’s impose some incredibly stiff restrictions on banks, that in turn, when passed on to the homebuilders essentially said, require or force them to shut down much of the new construction of affordable property in America. Until recently, unfortunately, those restrictions were still in place. They have been lifted somewhat recently, but certainly not to a point where they have become stimulus. And this coalition would really embrace a new look by the regulators of you know, property values are not going down the risk of acquisition development, construction is nowhere near what it was three years ago, and certainly not what it was during the Great Recession. So just rethinking that relief for acquisition, development, construction financing so that homebuilders can be provided a real landscape to build affordable property is a really important piece of this. of our Ask, as many of you have just seen these recent articles about lumber costs going up. Two years ago, the average board foot cost for lumber was about $400. It’s now at about 16 $100. Part of that is because of these tariffs that are being imposed on Canada and other places to import lumber in the US, when compounded with some of the harvesting and environmental issues that we deal with in America. You know, it builds a shortage of lumber and inventory. To the extent that many of the builders in America are actually having to import lumber from Russia. And it just that doesn’t make sense. These tariffs and some of these other issues. We need relaxation of these so that we can actually meet the needs of the consumer in America. I might also just mentioned if you haven’t seen the reports, please go to the end HB the National Association of homebuilders website, the average compliance and regulatory cost for a builder to build the average home in America has just risen to $94,000 per house and up from $84,000 per house in 2016, there is no way we are going to have affordable housing built in America and meet the needs of affordable homeownership unless we cure this problem of extraordinary regulatory and compliance costs for homebuilders. I’ll just end with a couple of other things Kara mentioned a first look program. Boy that would be really great for the aspiring homeowner of America to be able to have government agencies whether it’s Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FHA, VA, rural housing, whatever the age GNC may be to extend a real first look program for owner-occupants that need financing, to be able to get access to these affordable properties that that today are being purchased. time and time and time again by institutional investors, I might just add mention two more quick things. Certainly, we would love to see a revitalization of the FHA 203 k mortgage program that allows for rehabilitation of construction and construction of properties in the urban markets of America, you know, many cities of America own real estate, single-family homes, from tax sale and other things. And it would be fabulous for those cities and other nonprofits as to be able to get access to an affordable program for rehabilitation of those properties, with 30 year fixed rate mortgages included in them, and those mortgages are assumable. So well, a wonderful program that we’re working hard to get reconstituted that last, Kara mentioned, all of the things that, you know, were being contemplated in Washington right now, we don’t want to leave this without just making sure everyone here knows that housing is infrastructure, and we must embrace that. And Gosh, wouldn’t it be great to have a tax incentive for sellers of property under $300,000 in America to stimulate motivate their, the supply of property, that would be available, I want to thank NCRC, for its leadership in all of this. It’s been wonderful. We’ve got a lot of work yet to do, but and we need your help. And we need your oar in the water with us. So with that, I’ll just turn it back over to Ed. 

Gorman 45:03 

Thank you, Phil. And let’s bring everybody up if we could, so that we can have a kind of round robin compensation. You know, there’s so much here to talk about that. It’s unfortunate, we only have an hour. But let’s get to a couple of quick points. You know, we said 20 million and mirus explained why. But honestly, when you look at the shortfall, I’m not even sure 20 million is going to be enough. But to do that, we have to build at a much higher clip than we’re building. And in order to get that done, we have to have a very different permitting zoning setup than we’ve got in the us right now. My question, I guess to the panel is, what kind of zoning and permitting changes do you think we need to have? And who’s doing it right now? Is there anybody that you think we can point to, to say, hey, there’s really good, innovative stuff happening here? 

Bracken 46:01 

It’s Phil, let me just take one quick point and then turn it over to the rest of the team. You know, it is unfortunate that a few years ago, the administration decided to do away with the Affirmatively Furthering fair housing responsibility of every city in America in order for them to get what are called Community block grant developer development block grants. Yeah. You know, if there were incentives for cities to receive that money, for them to inspire Affirmatively Furthering fair housing, wherever those cities are at if they want, funding from the government, it would be a great thing for them to maybe be pointed towards relaxation of zoning and other kinds of restrictions that would be that are today problematic for building single-family homes. 

Gorman 47:05 

Other folks? 

Ward 47:07 

Sure. So, one of the Vanguard’s in this area have been advocates, known as NIMBYs Yes, in my backyard, and they really started organizing in a major way out in Minnesota and importantly in Washington State and what they’ve done there is working to remove single-family zoning restrictions, sometimes called up zoning, which means that you’re allowed to build higher-density housing in an area now that doesn’t do much for homeownership, but it certainly does a lot for relieving the affordable housing crisis, which if you follow the breadcrumbs can relieve like red pressures, and allow people to save more for down payments because they’re not paying so much in rent. But in all in in the cumulative kind of impact of these different localities restrictions. The tools that the localities have used to exclude higher density living, or make it more expensive to get permits to build lower-cost housing, are as varied as public And I think one of the things that are very important is, is creating like a common set of terms so that we understand what is preventing homeownership from becoming more widely available, the National Association of homebuilders just put out a study that said that the regulatory overhang the regulatory cost to construct a new home right now is $93,000 per house, before you put a shovel in the ground, and 93,000, that’s up from about 80,000, you know, about half a decade ago, so the costs are increasing. And whether it’s, you know, not having enough sewer pipes running out to a new neighborhood, or having a hard time getting a county inspector to come look at the electrical grid, you know, who knows what exactly what the problem in your locality is, but being able to describe, it’s going to be important. I’ll pause there for one second to say that, you know, the idea of using carrots or incentives to get cities to change their mind is great. But a colleague and friend of mine said that like sticks are probably necessary. And the last time the federal government really wanted states and localities to do something different, is analogous to the times that they prevented federal housing or federal highway funds from going out the door until you raised your legal drinking age to 21. And there were a whole bunch of things that have laws that allowed people to be drinking at age 18 to 21, or what have you. And it seemed like every state, Louisiana excluded, are able to figure out a way to get back their highway funds. And perhaps that kind of stick the most, you know, regressive possible is needed here. But first, we have to understand the problem, like what is holding back this community, and what are the terms we use to define 

Gorman 49:58 

excuse me,  

Calderon 50:03 

and let’s get back to just add that your housing is complicated. it and it really is a sort of hyper-local issues. So understanding some of those, those location-specific complexities is incredibly important. And having that common vocabulary would be helpful in making sure that municipality to municipality state to state we’re all talking about the same thing. One of the thing I would mention is that the affordable homeownership coalition also put together a compendium of you noticed some innovations that are taking place across the country, that folks can download from our website, take a look at a variety of different, you know, note certainly approaches that are being taken at trying to solve for this problem. 

Gorman 50:51 

And perhaps we can add that to the chat so folks can access it that thank you for pointing that out for a So, you know, I’ve just I’m seeing some I hadn’t seen this until a few moments ago, during the presentation, that your company did an analysis for the wall street journal published today on the effect of the current housing market on houses in the $100,000 range, which is I think, what you were showing us that the rate of appreciation of houses, and we’re talking about in neighborhoods like Youngstown, Ohio, and Cleveland and Detroit, places that had not really seen the housing boom, until recently, suddenly are now the hottest markets in the country. So truly every single part of this country is now affected by this housing price search. Right. 

Hepp 51:37 

Right, right. Actually, yes, I actually submitted that, that that data was to join regulations. Oh, yeah. Yeah. This other question from the journalist was, you know, what, what’s been the impact on the sort of dilapidated areas from this current housing boom. And we did see, cumulatively, that appreciation has been larger for those areas, then then, you know, higher price areas. But that extra to me points to one important. One thing about this discussion is that until we have more housing in general, we won’t have more affordable housing, you know, so this is not just, you know, my move. Exactly. So, you know, we need more housing everywhere and across all price ranges, in order to be able to get to what we need for in terms of affordable housing. So there’s, you know, lots of noise here. 

Gorman 52:38 

Yeah, no, thank you. That’s a great point. Some, uh, you know, there’s so much to talk about here. But we did get a question. And I want to see who raised it. Stella, Sheila Sutton, was talking about how it is that if we do get a chance to finally build some inventory, that folks can make a move into the middle class, particularly bipoc communities. Because they are these are the folks that don’t have generational wealth don’t have the downpayment assistance. Don’t have the ability to sustain a hit in the case of a problem with a roof or HVAC. So what is it we can do? And what is being done? And maybe I start with numerous on this because as the head of the city of phi, you’re working on this. What are you seeing out there in the way of solutions to help people of color move into homeownership sustainably? 

Calderon 53:33 

Yeah, thank you. Well, I mean, I think that there’s There are a variety of different solutions that needs to be put into play. And they differ depending on, you know, honestly, on the segment of the community that we’re talking about. You know, one of the things that Selma noted is that the largest age cohort is 20 to 30. And that the median first-time homebuyer age is 33. Well, last year, nearly half of all Latino buyers are under the age of 34. So like, two-thirds of the Latino population are millennials or younger. And if we believe the data from Urban Institute that 70% of homebuyers are going to be Latino between now and 2040. What we have is an increasing demand from a population that already has appetite. That needs to be, you know, the inventory issue is sort of the most acute and need to solve for the complexity in the solutions for the black community is different. And, you know, there’s been about a 20 to 30% persistent gap in black homeownership over the last 100 years. And it’s not for lack of appetite. It’s for a lot of systemic inequities. And so, there are, you know, to the question that Sheila asked, there are a lot of other sort of financial innovations that need to take place to make homes more affordable for, especially for folks who, from the black community who are debt-burdened, who have lower wealth, because the situations that they face in terms of having to pay for emergency things that and they don’t already have a lot of wealth that they can lean into that sort of complicates that situation for them further. So you know, so there’s, there’s a variety of different things that are at play. But you know, certainly the inventory issue is most acute and needs to be solved for. And then a variety of different financial and financial services solutions need to be put into play.  

Gorman 55:39 

And we’re getting a comment on that point exactly. From NCRC’s General Counsel, Brad Blower, who says, One solution is for lenders to offer downpayment assistance to minority borrowers, as part of a special purpose credit program allowed under a COA. And I think this is a vehicle that folks are just kind of realizing is there, and that we can make these kinds of special purpose. You know, I think people worried about whether working with suspect classes would, you know, whether you could target specific suspect classes with help like this, and I think the answer is it looks as though we can carry you look like you’re about to make a comment on that.  

Ward 56:19 

Yeah. So this is a concept is downpayment assistance program. Some people are, are referencing it as first-generation homebuyer. So people who grew up without, with parents who couldn’t work with, you know, a family that didn’t have intergenerational wealth transfer couldn’t go to the bank of mom and dad for their downpayment. And I want to hear Phil’s position on it and talk about it. But there’s a concept for a special downpayment assistance program targeted, particularly to first-generation homebuyers in the administration right now and talking in DC, there’s a hesitancy to put forward another program that that would amp up demand in a place where there’s just no houses under $300,000. To buy, right? So there’s, there’s a desire to kind of like, hold off for a second until we figure out how to make more houses that are $300,000 available. And that may not involve construction, that may involve like getting people to move out of their first-time homebuyer house and into it. You know that the next house? Yeah. 

Gorman 57:20 

So want to say first of all, cuz I know we’re under a minute here. Thank you all for this terrific panel of folks. Help us at the affordable homeownership coalition, move the needle here, we really need your participation weigh in, let us know you’re out there, if we can be of any help and getting you the tools that you need in your local community will do it. And we’d love to see you participating more directly. This is a an idea whose time has come. We really do need to build this level of housing to have an impact, because there’s going to be a nation of involuntary renters if we don’t. with that. I thank the panel. And thank you all for listening. 

All 58:00 

Thank you 

Every year, low-income working families count on the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and Child Tax Credit (CTC) in their refund to provide a vital cash infusion to their households. They use these to pay down debt, build up savings and make deferred purchases. It’s hard to overstate the importance of these refunds. For many, it’s the biggest lump sum they receive all year. However, widespread unemployment due to COVID-19 threatened EITC and CTC eligibility in 2020. Millions of Americans stand to lose their refunds, deepening systemic wealth inequalities that have disproportionately impacted people of color.

The issue highlights the limitations of our approach to low-wage work in the U.S.– one that has evolved over decades to rely on tax credits with earned income eligibility to supplement wages. What we need are new, innovative ways for low- and moderate-income workers to begin to save money, which is the foundation for building wealth. The opportunity to consistently save, over time, enables working families to begin to feel a sense of financial security, dignity and independence regarding their futures. The panel will discuss the prevailing tax system, and what may be needed to achieve long term, inclusive, systemic change.

Speakers:

• Tim Flacke, Commonwealth
• Ashley White, Director of the Economic Mobility Lab in Boston
• John Baylor Jr, Director of Lafayette Square Holding Company
• Fred Goldberg, Skadden Arps

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Flacke, 02:00

Hello, my name is Tim Flacke. And I am the co-founder and executive director of Commonwealth. And I’m incredibly pleased to join to welcome you to this panel on building an inclusive tax system. We have fantastic panelists today who represent just great experience in government and federal and local levels in the social sector, in philanthropy in the private sector. And I’m super excited to get the conversation started. I didn’t want to briefly introduce, as I said, I have the privilege of leading a national nonprofit named Commonwealth and our focus is financial security and opportunity for the people who need it most working people in this country who are we know disproportionately people of color and women. And we do that work through innovation and through partnerships. And over the past 20 years with that mission, we have really intersected with the tax system a lot. And that means not just tax policy. But as we’ll talk about today, how that policy is actually administered in the real world and how it touches down in in in real family’s lives. At moments that has meant really making the link between large tax refunds and saving possible through something called split refunds and later through an option to purchase us savings bonds right through the title of the federal tax filing process. And over this past year, when we saw a sort of looming crisis, that many families who rely on the Earned Income Tax Credit might not be eligible for it after unemployment last year, we rallied together with two other organizations, savor life and neighborhood trust and launched a campaign to make families aware of a provision Congress passed called the look back, you can read more about that on a website called tech tax crisis.org. But as we switch to the panel, one of the few perhaps remaining rituals that nearly everyone in this country participates in is filing an annual tax return. Last year, nearly 170 million households have filed tax returns. And while the popular notion may be that this is a, you know, everyone is doesn’t like taxes and doesn’t like to file taxes. The reality is that the overwhelming majority 125 million households receive refunds every year. And in a recent year, the average refund was nearly 20 $900. So for households at the median income in this country of about $65,000. That’s closing in on 5% of their annual income in a single moment. And of course, as we think about households on lower incomes, the importance of both those refunds, and frankly, the size of those refunds rises. So with that context, we now have several rounds of economic relief payments. And most recently, the American rescue plan Act passed earlier this year. And now the tax system is just even more important, with so much more at stake. So with that context, I’m incredibly excited to be joined by a fabulous panel. And I wanted to start the conversation today by asking them all to just briefly introduce themselves. And they each come as you’ll see with really different experience of the tax system and to just say a few words, given their experience, but what they see as the potential of this enormous infrastructure that as I say, almost every household in the country touches every single year. To get us started, Ashley, why don’t you? Why don’t you take the first response.

White, 03:29

Right. Thanks, Tim. Hello, everyone. I’m Ashley White. I’m the director of the economic mobility lab at The city of Boston, we primarily research and test innovative solutions that help promote economic mobility for Boston’s low to moderate-income residents. And as you know, we’ve concentrated on work like childcare, emergency savings, and then most recently, really focusing on this tax season and working with Commonwealth to spread awareness about the look back in terms of the potential and role of the tax filing system, you know, the first thing that sort of came to mind was the, the depth and breadth of this system, and how much potential I think it has to be, you know, a power to redistribute wealth, you know, throughout the US. So, just an example, the earned income tax credit, you know, in 2018, I think it was $65 billion were spread across tax filers via refunds. And 97% of that went to families, and 5.8 million people were moved out of poverty because of that tax policy. So, and we also know that, you know, the families who received those refunds, use it on really important things that provide financial stability, like, you know, home improvements, repairing a car, school supplies for their children, paying down debt, bills, that sort of thing. So really important necessities for families to sort of stay afloat. So I think that the system has a lot of power, a lot of potential. Obviously, there are a lot of flaws, which I think we’ll get to later. But then also, you know, with the addition of the American rescue plan act, you know, I think that really shows how much power this system has with the expansions that the Biden administration was able to put through Congress.

Flacke, 05:17

Thanks, Ashley, Don, how about you?

Baylor Jr, 05:20

Yeah, sure. Don Bailey, Jr, currently managing director at Lafayette Square Holding Company, which is a newly created black-owned, impact-driven asset management firm focused on affordable housing, good jobs and financial inclusion for asset managers and a broader LMR population before that, and so we are committed to providing access to free tax prep within our affordable housing properties, as we as we stand those up over the next decade, in which we hope to house 100,000 residents and create 100,000 jobs with low and moderate-income companies. Before that, I was at the Center for Public Policy Priorities. Now every Texan where I both coordinated a statewide tax time savings campaign, largely around savings bonds and other vehicles, but also advocated in the statehouse, around New access for Ei, TC, as well as community tax centers, I was part of a statewide coalition of community tax centers. And so it’s really, you know, a pleasure to be here, and really kind of elevate the importance of community tax infrastructure within the system. You know, within the federal tax filing system, I think when we think about the American rescue plan, you know, I think about 520, nines and children’s savings. And so we do know that there is a huge children’s savings gap, including a 529 savings gap, both by race as well as by income. And so thinking about ways to get creative about how we might be able to provide additional support for families to open up CSA is if they do not currently have one. And so being able to match their credentials, you know, with various state boatswain nine programs with the tax filing system, I think would be a real way to expand access as well as you know, it, you know, build awareness about the importance of saving for college.

Flacke, 07:33

Thank you, john. And Fred, how about you?

Goldberg, 07:38

Thanks, Tim. Pleasure to be here. And thanks for the hosts of this program. It is both timely and central to what needs to happen. Personally, I am currently at Skadden Arps of counsel. I am at a point in my career where I get to spend some of my time on tax the other half my time on pro bono public interest, diversity and equity issues and underserved communities. But prior to that, trace points in my career I’ve served as the IRS Chief Counsel. I have served as the IRS commissioner and I have served as the assistant secretary tax policy. So this subject is very near and dear to my heart. And the IRS is far more than an informed law enforcement agency. A better way to think about the IRS should is far In a way, the largest, most inclusive financial platform in our country. Now, there are folks who slipped through the cracks, because they don’t file returns, those tend to be the most vulnerable, most disadvantage, and disproportionately members of minority communities. What the IRS does, in terms of its reach to the American people, is massive. And the possibilities are endless. As Don mentioned, as Tim mentioned, as Ashley mentioned, the most recent legislation comes far away towards the social safety net. But as we move forward, it’s important to rethink to some extent the IRS role. As we broaden the social safety net, if we focus on issues such as emergency savings, as we focus, as Tom mentioned, on savings accounts for children, because we consider what technology can do today, both for better and for worse, it’s important to think through what the IRS mission is, in the short run, the single most important thing the IRS could do is effectively implement the expanded child tax credit. That is a transformative proposal. But beyond that, how does the IRS think about its job? is its job chase the cheat? For sure the tax gap is a horrendous problem. The also IRS also has the capacity to deliver important pieces of what Congress intends and what Congress intends is to make it work right. For everyone, minority communities, low-income communities, that’s the job. Thanks.

Flacke, 10:33

Well, no surprise, you guys have all illustrated exactly the point that the tax system, the IRS communities that helped deliver the tax experience, the possibilities of wealth creation, you know, there’s enormous potential, what I’d like to turn the conversation to is, what is it going to take to realize some of this potential? Who are the actors who need to do what jobs? And again, each of you have a wide variety of experience? So I think, Well, here’s some, some different answers on the who needs to do what side of this? And, Tom, why don’t we start with you, from your perspective? Who needs to do what to see some of this potential?

Baylor Jr, 11:14

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, you know, wearing a former funding hat, I was always just surprised at how much community successful community tax programs had to scramble for funding. And in my opinion, it should not have to be that way, in many ways, whether or not it’s through digital, or through face to face, they are critical connective tissue, between communities, and the IRS. And so we need to find permanent, I know that there is a federal program that does this at $30 million a year that I think there’s been a very positive development to support those. But I think that we need to go further in terms of local funding, as well as state funding, as well as philanthropic funding to make sure that there’s adequate resources to reach hard to serve communities. And I think, you know, hardest serve committees are called that for a reason, because it takes longer, and it may cost more to reach those folks. But it is critical. And as Fred said, I aligned with the intent of Congress with this particular legislation. And I do think, at the federal level, really thinking about how we really, really use and leverage the full origins of the federal government. I think about housing from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, what they can do in their financing of multifamily as well as the portfolio that HUD oversees. And so I think there were just I think this really requires an interagency approach, which I think child poverty obviously requires that type of approach. But I think ctci IRS and Treasury need to be, you know, really at the center when we think about an interagency approach to child poverty, as well as family economic security.

Flacke, 13:18

Thanks, Don. I just, I was struck that I’m not sure when people think about taxes, they always recognize to your first point, the role of communities and community organizations and I think that’s a great segue. Actually, I think you can speak to some of those from your experience. Can you point that, you know, tell us how Communities and Local Government plug into this.

White, 13:37

Yeah, thanks. I think it is a good segue. So I think, as Don was, was saying, you know, the community sort of tax preparation sites are really, really important. And from my perspective played a big role in what we’ve done in Boston over the past couple months. So we call them VITA sites. They’re free tax preparation services to Boston residents. And in Boston, the vitesse sites this in 2019, served over 12,000 taxpayers. And, you know, that was an average return of about $2,000. And so they play a big role in tax preparation and making sure that folks get their refunds. But we had, we had to do this tax season because it was so complex, and there were all these sort of new policies with the look back, it took an immense amount of coordination, which I think dawn sort of alluded to, you know, the I think the city is certainly well-positioned to be the one to be that convener, because we are on the ground, we know, you know, the community, we know the players. But, you know, for us here, we were taking out, you know, advertisements in different ethnic media, we were coordinating with the Office of neighborhood services, we were talking to external stakeholders like United Way, really trying to make sure that we got this message out in every way possible. And using all the different levers that the city had, at its at its at arm’s length. But then the last thing to that, I would say, in terms of resources, right, it takes all that coordination, and, you know, some of these, some of these sites, and some of these agencies are, you know, lacking in the resources to reach even more people than I think, you know, we have and so, I would say to that, you know, to realize some of this potential for more federal funding, you know, grants. I know, Don mentioned one, but continuing to invest in these localities invest in these nonprofits, these community-based organizations to make sure that they can reach those vulnerable communities would be ideal.

Flacke, 15:39

Thanks, Ashley. And, Fred, you’ve been at the very center of the other side of the table in what it’s like to run the IRS, maybe you can give us your perspective on the who needs to do what?

Goldberg, 15:51

Sure Tim. And having been lucky enough to run both tax policy and the IRS, there are all sorts of policies, or all sorts of theories are all sorts of ideas. The issue is what Donna’s saying and what Ashley is saying, it’s all in the execution. I can sit up there my penthouse and make all these great theories that help vulnerable communities. But it happens downstairs in the street. And that’s what’s so important here is the execution. Let me give you a simple example. Most taxpayers when they file their returns, provide enough information to know whether they’re eligible for the earned income tax credit, the childcare, credit, child tax credit, is the IRS job. Chase the ones they think of cheating, or as an important part of the IRS job to reach out to those who don’t claim what Congress intended. And let them know. awful lot emphasis on the former, there’s not much emphasis on ladder. The second point goes to what Ashley was saying. The IRS reaches lots of folks, but it doesn’t reach everybody. A homeless, most vulnerable among us. Well, who has that information? Ashley’s got that information? Boston has got that information. And I agree with Don on collaboration and cooperation among federal agencies. But the partnership if this is gonna work needs to be with state and local governments, because actually, you’re the folks who knows what’s going on. Thanks, Tim.

Flacke, 17:43

That’s fabulous. One of the things we talked about when we were chatting ahead of time, you know, getting ready for this was this concept of reverse engineering, you know, really starting with Who are we trying to reach? Because we have good reason to think they they are hard to reach? And then how do we work backwards from who knows them? Who has relationships, who has the data, who has the experience? And that was certainly going through my mind, you know, listening to this last, last round of answers. I think we’ve touched on this already. But I did want to just take a moment, you know, if there are particular challenges in trying to realize this world where the tax system works for everybody, and the enormous sums of money that already flow through it, and we’ll talk about this more in a minute, the additional psalms under the American rescue plan. What are there are these particular challenges that we haven’t really shined a light on yet, especially for this audience who are Enormous Lee capable and sympathetic to the to the cause, it might be useful to kind of point out some of the extra things we need to keep an eye on. Fred, can I come back to you first on this? Is there anything you haven’t had a chance to weigh in on in terms of challenges?

Goldberg, 18:54

Tim, I am a broken record, man, it’s all in the execution. And the IRS has been systematically hammered more than a decade, the IRS needs more funding. Again, not just for enforcement, but to fulfill its compact with the American people. Service is just what matters most because most, most of us most families in America, I get a W two, the information is there. But it shouldn’t take hours or days to reach the government. So service matters as well. The second piece is long-term funding, no person would ever dream of running a business, or they got an annual budget with no idea whatsoever what the next year’s budget was going to be you can’t do anything. So it’s more funding. It’s long-term funding. And it’s technology. The same technology that can deal with upper-income folks who aren’t paying what they owe, is the same technology that can work for the rest of the country. So its long term funding, its technology. And it’s a reorientation towards serving everyone in these, particularly the hard to reach communities like what DOD was talking about the folks in Boston, like what Ashley was talking about. So that’s what I meant.

Flacke, 20:28

I really, really appreciate that comment coming from you, Fred. Because I think, you know, it’s not always the first thing that comes to mind that we need to think about the IRS itself, and making sure that it has the resources to do the things that we all now increasingly want it to do to achieve the policy outcomes. So I think that’s really, really important. Actually, I wonder if you want to?

Goldberg, 20:51

Can I make another comment, Tim? Is this is the most exciting time. For an old guy, he used to live with the IRS in 40 or 50 years, because the Congress of the United States, this administration is paying attention to what he desperately underfunded under support an agency can do. I’m just getting out of balance here, Tim, but here’s the plug. You’ve got a very receptive Congress, you’ve got to read very receptive administration to get both this giant tax cap, principally at the high end, and the needs of these communities. So let’s all give them a cheer and hope it happens. Sorry, apologize.

Flacke, 21:55

No apology needed. Oh, that’s great. Ashley, is there anything you want to pick up on this one?

White, 21:50

Yeah, for sure. I think just two things before I get to a bigger chunk that I want to touch on. But one is, you know, the burden of all this is really on the taxpayer. Right, especially when it came to the look back, right, the policy was created, but it was really on that taxpayer to kind of figure out, how do I maximize my refund, where do I have to go, and that’s where kind of the local government kind of stepped in and tried to spread awareness. But that burden is on the taxpayer. And I think, you know, for more affluent folks, you know, they can sort of pay their way to ease right into navigating the system. And that’s just not the case for low to moderate-income folks. And so I think there’s some challenges there. And I think there’s some, some work to be done in terms of simplifying the process. We also had, you know, a pretty funny conversation before this too, around, you know, limited data and how we find these low to moderate-income folks. And, you know, we were talking about, you know, how 20%, roughly or so, don’t file who are eligible? And even that data come in some folks even question, you know, whether that data is valid or not. And so I think that there’s a need for more data. But I think it was funny, because we had this conversation about it. Well, the IRS, the IRS knows how much I make, they know where I live, they could literally take money out of my bank account if they wanted to. But yet, you know, we’re not using sort of the full power of the system to find these people and use the federal government to do some of this outreach. So I think that that’s really important. And then the last thing to that I would say, there are a lot of complications and challenges because of COVID. So you know, these vitae sites provide essential services to Boston residents and they do a really good job at it. But you know, COVID made things a little bit more challenging because services that used to be provided person, we’re now moving online. And so that meant that there were more touchpoints that needed to happen, you know, the person who would come and drop off their, you know, tax paperwork, if the tax repair had a question or something was wrong, it would, you know, require the person to, you know, get in contact with that tax file or have them come back to the site. And so I think that there are some challenges there. And I think when we look ahead to the next year, you know, if things are still you’re not fully 100%, in person, there needs to be some preparation work that happens there to make sure that that process is a bit more streamlined.

Flacke, 24:08

I love that point. I think we’re all at a place where we’re looking forward to hopefully the world, you know, quote, unquote, returning to, you know, back to the way it was before COVID. And yet, I hear you’re challenging us actually, to assume we’re still gonna have some issues next year and begin preparing now. So that seems right. Tom, what are your thoughts on this?

Baylor Jr, 24:25

Yeah, actually, I’m a simple guy. And so for me, it’s data data data is Ashley was referring to, I harken back to what the Department of Education did around FAFSA, the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, you could get data down to the campus level, on a bi-weekly basis, because they, because there was a political will to do so. And so therefore, principals and others could identify folks to actually apply and do outreach and target outreach. So you can’t manage what you can’t measure. And so we are not able to do the measuring and in the prompt enough time, a lot of times the data is two to three years old, by the time you get it. And so that I think is part of the infrastructure package for the IRS, if there is one is thinking about how to leverage the data that they have to improve outreach and uptake at the local level.

Flacke, 25:41

Fantastic.

White, 25:47

I also just add one thing Tim’s if that’s okay. Absolutely. Um, I was I was thinking, reflecting on this panel about you all the work in this might be, you know, you want me to save this for later, we can pause, but all the work that’s going into, you know, vaccine equity, right, and all the outreach that the federal government is doing to make sure that vulnerable communities can reach the vaccine, they’re putting vaccine sites, they’re using community health centers, right? Why aren’t we doing that for Texas? Right. So I think, and, you know, again, going back to the data, they have the information. And I think that there’s a greater role that they can play there.

Flacke, 26:19

I think that’s just so well said it feels like as a country where we’re more we understand the concept of equity better today than we did even 18 months ago as an ideal, but applying it to the tax code seems like it’s work yet to be done. And when some households have so much more at stake in getting it right, and being connected to the system in getting what they’re do, it just seems to make so much sense that we need to go that extra mile to make sure those are the households who get the resources. But I want to do is that, you know, we’ve touched on the impact of these American rescue plan. And let’s, let’s just get into that a bit. And just make sure we’re all on the same page, you know, in that bill are many, many things. The estimate I’ve seen is $410 billion going directly to households, primarily through tax provisions. But this includes an enormous expansion of the child tax credit, as we’ve already talked about, and the beginning of periodic payments, the Service says it will begin those in July, as well as and we’ll see the impact of this next tax season when people are filing for 2021 refunds and expansion of the EITC and the child, Child and Dependent Care tax credit. And other provisions. I’m probably not remembering right now. And I have to say, you know, a Commonwealth having worked on financial security for low-income households for years, the number of times we’ve said some version of people just have more money, everything we’re trying to do would be that much easier. It’s almost one of those things you don’t even say out loud anymore, because it’s so so, you know, regular thought. And yet here we have this moment when enormous sums of money are beginning to move. And so with that, I just wanted to take a minute and go around and ask for your thoughts about what are the particular opportunities created by the American rescue plan? What are the particular needs and especially for this audience who are connected to communities who are used to raising their voice to policymakers? What are the important things they should be thinking about to make sure we get the most possible return on this historic act? Don, I’m gonna come to you first on this one.

Baylor Jr, 28:25

Yeah, you know, I think I do want to just, you know, circle back to the point around child poverty, which I think is really you know, somewhat of a moonshot. You know, for reducing child poverty over the next five to 10 years, if we’re able to get it right, and we’re able to make a lot of these things permanent, you know, and I do think, understanding the data, and also how to drive uptake. Because I think these monthly payments are really, really critical. I think you’re talking about income smoothing and supplemental mechanism that is likely to have bigger impacts in certain parts of the United States will show up poverty is the highest, like the South. Right, and we’re wages are the lowest right, and where predatory lending is the highest. And so I think, you know, the other impacts that I’m really interested to see is kind of what does this do, to subprime borrowing, as people have, you know, potentially more cushion, you know, on a periodic basis, as opposed to the lump sum, which we know has, you know, benefits and advantages, but having a lump sum and periodic payments is kind of like having your cake and eating it, too. So, you know, everyone wants to be able to do that. So I think that’s a good thing.

Flacke, 29:52

That’s great. Fred, what are your thoughts on this moment, the American rescue plan?

Goldberg, 29:58

And, Tim, I apologize. I’m digressing once again, but I want to pick up on what Don said about data. Ai, I strongly recommend reading Professor Browns book, the whiteness of wealth, and how the tax system compounds in equity. It’s a fascinating read for tax person. It’s also fascinating read for everybody else, because the data she pulls together. So in terms of priorities matter, you can’t do everything. You can’t train the ocean or the spoon. To me, the single priority is making the child tax credit permanent, that gets exactly what Dan is talking about. The future is our kids. We do an awful lot for all folks like me, we don’t do nearly what we should. Young kids in this country, especially vulnerable kids. And that must lead flow of money is transforming. It’s transforming like Social Security. It’s transforming like Medicare, Medicaid. It’s transforming like the EITC. So the single priority, at least in my judgment should be make it permanent. That’s a very heavy political lift. But the other issue is making that administer. One of the interesting developments is the IRS is always behind the IRS has all sorts of jobs. And I think it is fair to rethink how to execute permanent one of the interesting developments, from my perspective, is senator Romney, who proposed making it permanent, and running it through the Social Security system. Other work, including work, that Commonwealth that Tim and his colleagues are doing, are thinking about different kinds of payment platforms, for now, do it with the IRS get it right. But in the real world, they get permanent, and figure out how it’s going to work easiest for the folks has tended to reach I’m done. That’s what should happen, at least in my judgment.

33:37

I think that’s, that’s great. And I’m guessing there probably many people who are watching today who agree that permanence of these monthly payments is really a, you know, would be just a fantastic development. I would also one thing we’ve wondered about is, you know, sometimes even a great policy that stumbles out of the gate, faces a steeper climb, right to get institutionalized or made permanent. And with that thought in mind, I am really interested actually, in your perspective, as at least, you know, in the current state, you may be closest to where the rubber meets the road. And I’m curious what your thoughts are about how this how this enormous new policy rolls out in such a fairly fast time and why we should be thinking about it.

White, 32:54

Yeah, well, I think, luckily, luckily for us, we have a little bit more time than we did with the stimulus bill in December, right to kind of prepare for this tax season. So that’s, that’s a plus. But, you know, I think I think I kind of go back, I don’t want to sound like a broken record. But I think, again, you know, more investment and more resources to help us expand our outreach is going to be really, really important. And I also think, you know, planning ahead, right, trying to sort of understand what the implications for this are on the local level, who, who is, you know, most important to kind of reach out to I also I’m also thinking, you know, as we’re sort of talking here, you know, there’s people who have been eligible, right, and now they’re eligible, and they file every year. But because of this, this legislation, you know, there are folks who were not eligible before who, who now are. And so that’s a whole different ballgame right of trying to really find those people and make them more aware of, you know, the impact that this policy can have on their life. So I think it’s going to take a lot of a lot of work, a lot of planning ahead and continuing that, you know, collaboration, that coordination that the city of Boston has played in the area.

Flacke, 34:05

Oh, that’s great. And I think a piece that’s come up in all your answers is that this concept of recurring monthly payments, you know, is is somewhat new for a tax credit, perhaps entirely new. And so to your point, actually, about trying to think how to reach out to different communities, part of the message now needs to be not just file your taxes, a message that, you know, frankly, there’s a lot of practice with, but a message about making sure you have provided the right destination to receive those monthly payments. And, you know, I’m struck by the parallels, Fred, to your comment about, you know, it’s no way to run a federal agency, not knowing what your budget is, from year to year, it’s no way to run a household, right, not knowing what your income is week to week, but that’s the reality. And for at least the second half of this year, 10s of millions of households will be able to count on these recurring payments. And that should open up possibilities if we can explain what’s coming and give people the support to think about what doors that opens. To pick up on one of Don’s earlier comments, including something very aspirational, like saving for your kids long-term future. If you knew for certain you were going to have $600 payments coming in for the next six months, you know, that might be a moment you’ve never had before, to say I can afford to put $10 a month aside for this, or $50 a month aside for that. So these are all the things we need to think about in the coming in the coming weeks. So one, one thing that’s already come up, but I wanted to talk about it explicitly, is the opportunities around racial equity created by this moment. And you know, if we’ve already talked about the enormous sums of money, and the fact that we know not all Americans have the same amount at stake in being a part of the tax system. But my sense is maybe there is more we can do to have this moment amount of progress on hundreds of years of racial inequity. And I thought, actually, why don’t we come back to you first on this one? Is there anything you’d like to add? In terms of bad question? How do we think about racial equity in the tax system in this moment?

White, 36:08

Yeah, well, I mean, I’ve been thinking about it in sort of two, two buckets. There’s the bigger picture, which I’ll let, I’ll let Fred, maybe comment on in terms of the systemic changes, right, within the tax code, that, you know, have been that way for, you know, 10s, decades and decades and decades, and, you know, need some need some tweaking to sort of really reflect the country that we are now, right. And I also think on the ground, though, more locally, like I’m thinking about, like, what can I specifically do, and I think what’s important for the city is to sort of keep our eyes and I know, I sound like I’m repeating myself here, but you’re making sure that those vulnerable communities can maximize their tax benefits. And and, you know, that’s the most important thing for us. And so, you know, we’re over the next, you know, months, we’re going to be doing a lot of work around thinking about how can we improve our outreach efforts now that we have a bit more time to kind of prepare and think about this and understand, you know, the implications of this legislation? How can we reach those vulnerable communities? And I think, you know, what’s a good thing is that the pandemic has, in some ways, provided a nice roadmap for us, you know, folks are doing these types of outreaches in different ways, you know, vaccine-related testing related, that sort of thing. And so I think there’s a lot to learn over the past year as to how do we kind of improve our outreach efforts, but I would say, just on the ground, it’s really important for us to continue to further our efforts on reaching those vulnerable communities, but I’ll leave the high-level discussion about tax policy in the system, to the experts on the panel.

Flacke, 37:47

Thanks, Ashley. Don, let’s go to you next time. This one, what are your thoughts?

Baylor Jr, 37:50

Yeah, I’m actually gonna go a little bit of a pivot here to think about the corporate tax system in particular CRA and, you know, I know there’s been, you know, Community Reinvestment Act. I know there’s been a lot of discussion about you know, you know, CRA 2.0. You know, what we need to do, particularly around kind of how race and income come together in America, but thinking also just about how we might connect CRA investments to corporate business tax systems, right right now, the incentives are pretty light and not really connected, very much to the taxes that they pay. And so just just really thinking about different ways to direct investment in these communities through a broader understanding of the tax system, just kind of a broader advantage of the tax system outside of the personal income filing tax system.

Flacke, 38:54

Thank you for that Alright, Fred, you get to round this one out, let me get thoughts on using this moment around racial equity.

Goldberg, 39:03

I’m very privileged person, I get to spend a fair amount of time working with Robert Smith, on his praise initiatives. It’s all about capital. My judgment is judgment, which is what matters a hell of a lot more getting capital deployed in these communities, in ways that work for the communities. And whether you’re talking about opportunity zones, whether you’re talking about low income, housing tax credit, whether you’re talking about the market tax credit, whether you’re talking about ways of moving capital into these communities, whether it’s education-based, whether it’s healthcare base, whether it’s community ownership base, whether it’s opportunities for all members of community have ownership, interest in community investments. There’s so much out there, the folks who have been experimenting with and all of these areas, job training, and they’re all there. And the tax law can play a very important role in getting those kinds of activities. Where are they belong? with community-based goals in mind, investor goals are fine, if you want to invest. But those investments done properly through the tax code for the incentives tax code provides, can get the capital where it belongs, serving the communities that should be served. Now, that’s all blue sky. But those of us who live in the tax world are confident it could be done. And it’s question of whether the Congress has

Flacke, 41:00

I think that is a great point for all of us to keep in mind at this particular moment in history. We are coming to the end of our time. But as I said, a couple of times, the way I view this, this presentation, this panel discussion today is we have the privilege of talking to probably a couple 1000 of the most activated, connected, accomplished resourceful people out there. And so with that in mind, I’d like to just end with a quick lightning round. What’s the one thing you think this audience should take away and remember, as we leave this conference on the question of how we build an inclusive, impactful tax system, and we’ll go Ashley, Don, and Fred, so Ashley, take it away? What’s your one thing?

White, 41:45

I get two? I think, again, it’s the resources that the cities and localities need to make the impact that we can because we’re closest to the people. And then secondly, I’m really curious when advocating for permanent changes, of course, I think the city can play a role in that. And then I’m really interested to and seeing your what is the research and data that comes out of the AARP, right, after we’ve expanded the child tax credit, you know, what have we found that that’s done? And how can we use that information to make these changes more permanent or advocate for better tax policy? expanding, etc. So not one word, but I did my best.

Flacke, 42:27

Excellent, Don?

Baylor, 42:28

I would totally concur with Fred’s recent statement about the importance of, you know, deploying capital and impact driven ways something that we’re trying to do at Lafayette Square, I think in terms of a big takeaway. I think, you know, once again, I think it is about reining this issue largely around child poverty and economic mobility, and in a public, private, but public meaning interagency approach to troubled child poverty with taxes near the center of that discussion. And so I think that that will help us kind of drive a local state national, really movement around the connection between taxes, economic security, child poverty and economic mobility.

Flacke, 43:18

Fred?

Goldberg, 43:22

Thanks, Tim, I’m tempted to duck your question. But having seen all of this for a very long time, one of the lessons you learn it’s exactly what Tom said. You get what you want. Measure. Another lesson that you learn, I’ve learned, I think others have learned in the policy context is the risk of making the best the enemy of the good. That’s a hackneyed phrase. But misters not a happy reality. But it is a reality. When social security was first enacted, it was drafted intentionally to exclude women and persons of color. When the Fair Labor Standards Act was enacted, it was drafted intentionally to exclude persons of color women, that was the reality of their time. But look where it’s gone. The EITC, if you look at the expansion under Republicans, Democrats, every Mexican Congress in the White House, it was a program that addressed poverty. And it worked. And so it was expanded. And I think that keeping that in mind is that in many of these cases, the structure that makes the difference is what matters, the platform matters, the plumbing matters. Because if you get the plumbing, right, you get the platform, right. Future folks can imagine things we couldn’t imagine, to build on. If you get universal access to a financial system. Think what you can build like Tim, what you’re saying about these payments. And so I think today, a clear-eyed view as to what the platform should be a clear-eyed view is what is unacceptable, now is important. And then go build on it may be a downer. But that’s what I believe.

Flacke, 45:36

And that is a fabulous closing comment, I want to really, really, really thank this group for bringing a wide range of perspective to a really interesting conversation. And I will just close with this thought, speaking both personally for myself and from people in institutions. I know, I think a lot of us after a really hard period in the last 18 months, feel like we’re coming up on a closing or an ending or a conclusion. And I would actually say it’s the opposite. Congress has given us an enormous but incomplete opportunity in the form of the American rescue plan act and what may come ahead. And this exhausted as many people are, understandably, It’s on us to see that. And I think this panel is illustrated as an incomplete, but really, really, really historically promising opportunity. And we have to figure out what are the complimentary pieces at the community level in the private sector in further work from government. At Commonwealth, we want to do that to help people have financial security and savings and to get them into the financial system. And the invite is here to partner with us on that. But you all may have other ways you want to leverage this opportunity. So thank you again, and one, we’ll have a chance to take some questions, and we look forward to talking with all of you. Thanks again.

Flacke, 47:00

So hello to conference attendees. And hello to my fellow panelists. It’s really nice to have this opportunity to take some questions directly from the audience. And so we’ll just dive right in the first question to come across from Katie, how can local advocates support this work? And I assume this work is probably making sure people get the tax credits and tax refunds that they’re entitled to. But beyond that, just how to make this tax system inclusive and well served. Ashley, I’m gonna start with you on this one. How can local advocates support this work? Sounds good.

White, 47:44

Thanks, Tim. And thanks, Katie, for your question. So what Boston did, and I think many other cities probably did, as well as you know, partnered with local organizations in the city. So Commonwealth, being one of those. And so, you know, what we tried to do is basically figure out who are all the different organizations and potential touchpoints that, you know, that folks have with taxpayers, and how can we sort of inform these folks of this, this policy and of this tax season if they don’t already know of it, and tried to sort of basically spread, spread our web as far and wide as possible. So, you know, reached out to folks like United Way of massbay because they’re very much involved in that in that Tax process, you know, we were communicating to, you know, ethnic media outlets, to hopefully try to reach folks in those communities. So I think, from my perspective, I think local advocates can play a part in spreading the word about tax time, and the different credits that lower moderate-income folks are entitled to. And I think also playing a role in obviously advocacy at a greater level for some of the policies that we discussed during the panel.

Flacke, 49:11

Thank you, Ashley. Fred or Don, is there anything you want to add on this one?

Baylor Jr, 49:48

Well, do you think, you know, one thing the American rescue plan does provide a pathway for, and obviously, this is a, you know, a pressing issue, near and dear to the heart of NCRC is around the racial wealth divide. There are items in there, you know, not just on the income side, but actually, student loan forgiveness, which is, you know, a driving force of the racial wealth gap. And so, you know, I think as we go forward, and we begin to measure the effects, the impacts of many of these, you know, federal pieces of legislation, I think that we can make a very compelling case for making many of these things permanent. And so because I think, when you start to potentially close the racial wealth divide, making an argument that you want to go back to what things were like before, I think, is a very difficult argument to make. And so I think, you know, I think there’s an opportunity for us, you know, really within the data within the measurement, so that we can really assess the impact of not just, you know, the child tax credit, but many of these other, you know, economic payments and benefits to folks. Because I think, turning back, whether or not it’s on child poverty, the racial wealth gap, I think that’s going to be a largely untenable position for those that are opposed to it. And so I would really like that to be, you know, kind of a driving focus for advocates who really care about the racial wealth divide as well as child poverty.

Flacke, 50:55

And I can just tag on, I think one thing that’s easy to overlook, is that getting stories into your local media, about the impact that these refunds and these, particularly the expansion of the child tax credit, what impact that’s having, it’s actually really, really helpful to see that pop up in your hometown newspaper, it doesn’t have to be the New York Times or The Washington Post a USA Today, advocates, including very sophisticated advocates in Washington can find and use those local stories. And so I would just say, it’s on all of us to tell the story about what’s working, and what’s being impactful. And to sort of assume that there’ll be a lot of forces that will naturally be looking for where it doesn’t work, or where something went wrong. You know, it’s sort of a rule of the universe. Those stories get a lot of attention. And it’s going to take all of us to make sure that the impact side is highlighted.

Goldberg, 51:54

Say this is very brief, boat, volunteer. And now’s the time. Take it. It’s my advice. Listen to Don and Ashley. I’m just mainly Bs, but they know what they’re doing.

Flacke, 52:15

That’s elicit. Well, Fred. The next question, I think, is one you might want to answer. And that was if you could say a little bit more about the book that you referenced, or the Browns book, maybe just the title and the author and a word or two about why he recommended it. I think the audience would appreciate that.

Goldberg, 52:30

Sure, Tim, and you know, a lot of it is sort of deep text dive geek stuff. But she captures some critically important things. And what she focuses on is not abstract. The inequity we see today, obviously started with slavery, that is a fact. But then you get past the Civil War. You look at the Homestead Act. You look at social security, and F LSA when it was enacted. You look at the GI Bill. And these are objective facts. You can’t argue with them. All you have to do is read the law and that is the source. The continuing source of the wealth gap in an equity in this country. You may want to run, but you can’t hide from those facts. And that’s, you know, it’s just it’s a very compelling case. But the other part of the story she tells is that the effects of our various systems reach beyond just persons of color, to white families in the Midwest that have been victims of the opiate crisis. And the challenge of figuring out what solutions shouldn’t be universal. And what shouldn’t be targeted? Is the challenge. And she makes all of this clear, please, for me, and in a way that hadn’t seen that clarity before.

Flacke, 54:30

Thank you. And again, I believe the book is the author is Dorothy Brown, and I believe the title is the color of Well,

Goldberg, 54:40

No, Tim, it’s the whiteness of well, the whiteness of Well,

Flacke, 54:43

thank you very much. We have another question. Don, this one’s directed to you from Fran, Dawn, you preach data, data data, what will the stats look like? When the racial wealth divide is better? How will we identify when what we’re doing works, you take that big one on,

Baylor Jr, 55:01

I will attempt to I do think we have to get better and more frequent about measuring the racial wealth gap, I am not very satisfied with the intervals and the frequency, the type of data that is used, I do think that we need to reboot in terms of how we measure wealth, particularly as it pertains to race. And so I think that is a very, very important step before we can actually begin to actually measure the impact of many of these measures, right, I just think, the three year interval, the way it’s done the lack of really good local data around that. And so I think I would really kind of challenge some of my data scientists in the field, to really kind of reimagine the way that we measure wealth in this country so that we can measure it in a much more efficient and timely matter and manner so that we’re not behind the curve when the advocacy time comes.

Flacke, 56:10

Thanks, Don. And I’ll just observe one thing, smarter people than me have pointed out is that we have to keep track of our income every year as part of the tax filing process. Right. But we don’t report our wealth. And there are probably good reasons for that. But it’s just a fundamentally different public use case of the data? Well, I think we’re, we’re coming up on the end of the time, I want to just do one quick round and ask if there’s any final thought, especially knowing, for example, that the American families plan now includes a provision to extend the child tax credit for I believe it’s another five years, is there any final piece of advice that our audience should take back to their, to their work in their communities that can help make that come to pass the permanence of that expansion? Fred, I’m gonna start with you, then we’re going to Ashley and Don will give you the last word.

Goldberg, 57:14

I don’t know what the rules are about what one can say about political action. So I’m not going to volunteer anything.

Flacke, 57:24

All right. Well, I think sometimes that’s, that says more than saying the actual thing.

White, 57:34

Yeah, so I think for us, again, it’s, it’s about, you know, trying to maximize this policy on the ground, right. And what’s written doesn’t always end up happening on the ground. And so it’s sort of our jobs to make sure that that that happens. But I would also say, and this is sort of tangentially related, but I think that there’s a real opportunity here to take the child tax credit expansion and the expansion of the EITC and really sort of doubled down on some other efforts, right around financial power and that sort of thing. So if you’re going to have this, you know, tax time touchpoint you know, what other services can we provide? What other sort of tools and resources can we give tax filers to help them build wealth or become more economically mobile? So I think that’s going to be certainly a focus for us. Great

Baylor, 58:36

Great, you know, I’m gonna, you know, really kind of double down on what I’ve said previously, around the importance of framing some of these issues within the child poverty framework. I think that, you know, there is a good history, I think, in this country of whether or not we’re talking about the elderly, right, and poverty, the war on poverty, effectively cut poverty in half, you know, over a period of time. And so I think, I think there’s a lot more bipartisan support. If you think about, you know, really trying to defend the existing level of child poverty or wanting to go back to where it was, you know, pre the expansion of the child tax credit. So I do think there’s tremendous opportunity to really frame this issue around eliminating child poverty. I mean, I think that, you know, the, you know, as a moonshot, as a long-range goal, I think it is certainly possible to dream that scenario. And so I think that that is something that can animate quite a few advocates, but also, as I said, before, garner some level of bipartisan support. Because it’s really hard to argue that child poverty is good for the United States of America.

Flacke, 59:56

And Don, the thing you said a couple minutes ago, is on my mind that, you know, sometimes it’s really hard to take things away. And I think there is something that we can, we can all sort of factor that into how we approach this work, how we talk about this work, how we explain the impact. And one thing we’ve we’ve even wondered a little bit on my team, you know, if the financial services industry, for example, recognizes how powerful it is to have 10s of 1000s of families, or 10s of millions of families receiving recurring monthly payments, that’s not a bad thing that helps to create that sense that this is here. And it’s and a lot of different stakeholders recognize its value. So we need to, we need to think about, in my view, those who are sympathetic to the cause. And we need to think about other stakeholders who can recognize that this is in their interest. So I think we’re we are at time, Fred, were you trying to get a word in I couldn’t tell if you were raising your eyebrow, the way somebody at an auction does trying to signal. Alright, I want to just take this moment to thank all of you again for making the time to join us and have a really lively conversation. And really thank the audience for tuning in and listening and sort of joining us and thinking together about how we make the most of this moment and create the kind of inclusive tax system that attacks child poverty, that could gives people financial security and opportunity that attacks the racial wealth gap and inequity. And so I look forward to working with all of you to see that aspect progress towards those goals. Thank you.

Politicians say that they want more affordable housing and jobs. But the property tax applied to buildings has the economic impact of a 10% to 20% sales tax on construction labor and materials. This reduces the amount of buildings produced and employment, while raising building prices and rents for both residents and businesses.

Infrastructure should facilitate development. But, if it is well-designed and well-executed, nearby land prices and rents rise. Existing residents and businesses are displaced. Affluent landowners are enriched, exacerbating inequality.

High land prices near existing infrastructure encourage developers to seek cheaper (but more remote and less productive) sites, creating urban sprawl. Sprawl harms the environment. It also wrecks budgets by duplicating expensive infrastructure. Sprawl development undermines the vitality of city centers, creating neighborhood decline and blight.

Private appropriation of publicly-created land values fuels land speculation, a parasitic activity that creates nothing of value. But speculation inflates land prices, particularly near urban infrastructure amenities.

Some communities have overcome these problems by reducing tax rates applied to building values (reducing the cost of construction, improvement and maintenance) while simultaneously increasing tax rates applied to land values (reducing speculation and moderating land prices). Shifting taxes off of buildings and onto land makes both buildings and land more affordable without new spending or revenue losses. It also redirects more affordable development to infill sites, reducing blight and sprawl.

Student loan debt continues to enlarge the racial wealth gap, disproportionately impacting Black women at every stage of the process. 40 Acres and a Degree is a consortium of HBCUs partnering with Change Machine to prevent, mitigate and manage student loan debt within their respective communities. Through a suite of strategies that includes virtual financial coaching, the repurposing of existing datasets, and convening HBCU partners on policy recommendations, this consortium is working to close the racial wealth gap in their own backyards. In this session, we’ll hear from HBCU partners who are leading this work, examine various datasets and engage attendees in a robust conversation around policy solutions rooted in the lived experience of students, families, administrators and faculty.

Speakers:

• Ashley Harrington, Federal Advocacy Director and Senior Counsel, Center for Responsible Lending
• Nichole Lewis, Assistant Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs/Dean of Students, Elizabeth City State University
• Bridget Tate, Director of National Programs, Change Machine
• Juniqui Hairston, Executive Admin Partner, Lenovo

Transcript:

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Tate 

Thank you for joining us for today’s panel, 40 Acres and a degree. We would like to thank NCRC for this opportunity in this national platform to share the work that we at Change Machine are doing in concert with national HBCUs. My name is Bridget Tate and I’m the director of national programs at Change Machine. We’re excited to share with you the current work we’re engaged in that impacts, influences and impedes systemic barriers that are created by design that continue to marginalize black students and black communities and reaching financial mobility. 40 acres and a degree as many of you have probably caught on is obviously a spin on “40 acres and a mule.” The promise of restoration and refuge and reparations for the black community. That never happened. Education and homeownership has historically been touted as the straightest path to black communities could take at reaching financial success and mobility. This very path has proven to not only be not straight, but an actual reality, a path of burdens, systemic barriers, and pitfalls. Today, we will discuss the historical context of generational wealth, racial equity, and actionable partnerships and solutions that we can all take to address these racial injustices. I’m joined today by Dr. Lewis. She is the Dean of Students for the Division of Student Affairs at Elizabeth City State University. We are also joined by Ashley Harrington. She is the federal advocacy director and a senior counsel at the Center for Responsible Lending. And Juniqui Hairston is an HBCU graduate from North Carolina Central University. And she is here to share with us her personal experience as a student carrying college debt post graduation. Welcome, everybody. And I’m going to start with you, Dr. Lewis and get us kicked off, you were one of the first partnerships that Change Machine made with an HBCU. And at that time, you weren’t in your current role. But thank goodness you carried us with you where you went. And so I want to just kind of kick off with you, you understand the work that we’re doing, you have such a great perspective in regards to financial insecurities and how it relates to students. So I want to ask you, Dr. Lewis, if you could tell us a little bit about how does integrating financial securities within existing departments cause impact for students and the impact that you see?

Dr. Lewis

Thank you so much, Bridget. So for us, and for most of our institutions, although we all have our own mold, we often still still pull from and serve the same kinds of students with the same kinds of backgrounds. At Elizabeth City State University, we’re located in North Eastern North Carolina. And we pull largely from 21 of the 100 counties in the state, that are considered to be tier one, which for us is high role, high poverty, low access to some of those basic needs, and those things that that helped to allow us to be responsible and engaged citizens. And so when we talk about and think about that impact in integrating, each time a student has an interaction, right with a person, whether they’re in the residence hall, whether they’re in a diamond facility, where they’re actually coming through financial aid, whether they are in a career development workshop, not having a sense of the importance of financial stability, and security, hinders their productivity, and moving towards their goal. And so while I have a student who may come into my office, as a dean of students, I often see students who are not in and that have maybe not made the best decisions in a variety of ways about a variety of things. But in the greater context, I’m interacting with them for a very finite period of time for a very finite reason. When we delve deeper, it is often those financial insecurities that unawareness that makes them make certain decisions around conduct, around decisions about remaining on campus, moving off campus that then puts them into a bind. But it is also the only time that they may have where they’re engaging with someone who has an understanding and is willing to take the time to unpack why those decisions have been made. And what household they come from, that has now been illuminated by the lack of education, the lack of engagement, the lack of exposure becomes illuminated in their collegiate experience. And so each one of our areas, having access to those resources, each one of our areas when educated around ways that they can coast through as if I’m making different decisions now that will impact them long term really is crucial, because that person may not go to the session about the financial literacy, they may not go to us session that talks about mobility and social mobility always been linked, therefore to financial mobility. So if you don’t have those integrated spaces, then we often lose that student and we do them a disservice. And so for us to graduate, a student who has not had an opportunity to be exposed to Then educated about, and then I able to apply the resources and get those resources, we’re in the confines of our campuses, then we send out a graduate who is no more prepared to live differently, to live wholly to live better to make a better contribution, not just to the greatest society, but even to give back to the institution, so that the next generation of people can be educated in that same vein, and soar even higher. 

Tate 

So appreciate all that there was an Amen moment and what you were saying, I want to stop and pause. Because of the connection that you made in the intersectionality of all of these things that come together, and that mobility, you mentioned social mobility, right behind financial mobility. And that’s really what we’re talking about today. We’re talking about generational wealth, we’re talking about bad information or just not getting the information. You know, there’s often a false narrative out there that says that within our committee, community, there’s this like literacy problem, because we often use the word literacy when we talk about finances. And, you know, I’m here to break those chains, that chains of information, because what we’re really talking about is not the lack of the knowledge, it’s about the access to the information, and for the information to be good information. And so I appreciate the work that you’re doing. And I know that over the course of your tenure on multiple campuses, and working with, specifically black students, you’ve seen this from many spectrums. Can you share with me just a little bit about how your outgoing students, and then your incoming students what those baseline differences potentially could look like, while you are having access to financial constraints and support for somebody to help them navigate through those goals.

Dr. Lewis 

So if I look at my incoming class, my current students who were admitted for the fall, or who will be admitted for fall 2021 55% of those students at this point, a little bit over 1000 are Pell Grant eligible. My percentages are matched when I look at the EFC for students. So for that, what that means is what the students’ families are for truancy, and ability to contribute to any portion of tuition. And so 55% of my first year students are 0%, that means their family does not have the opportunity to give $1 toward their academic pursuits. And so all that brings all the things that happened in the nation, all the things that happened, all those so that’s health care that the the types of degrees or or professional trainings, or trades that allow someone to live and operate, and a working ways. They’re coming from that space. And so I like the fact that you say, Bridget, feel that it’s not about literacy, it’s about a different language, because they do know how to move money. They don’t they know how to move money, they know how to make money, how to have a move there, how to delay this. There is a way in which they’re managing money, it is not a sustainable way of managing money. And it is not always forward thinking, in some places. Not some places, I don’t want to give a blanket statement, right. But in many of those spaces, what it equates to is they’ve gotten you to this point. So wherever that looks like in that first year, and we talk about even retention is building a plan that gets you in today, right? I get enough to pay your enrollment fee, I get enough to pay your housing application fee. I get enough for this first semester. But I haven’t been trained or educated that this is a long game, right? So that after that first year, or that first semester, all those things come due again. And then there’s more. And then I get this great opportunity because I’m getting the grades, I’m involved in student organizations, I am engaged, I am becoming aware because I’m attending career because the nominees gone to internship, and I need to live somewhere that is in Elizabeth City, or that isn’t Durham. And I need to go and stay in Washington DC or I need to move to Wichita because that’s where it is. I need to go to Troy, Michigan because I’m going to go and do an internship with Kellog or General Mills. And I haven’t been set up in a way and I haven’t had the education and allows them to do that. But I’m able to get to that point. So my outgoing students and I’ve had that experience and that exposure so they get the opportunity to we get the opportunity to control the narrative but almost forced the narrative. So I get to say So now you would like to be engaged and involved in student leadership. And now you would like to be engaged is a as a resident Hall assistant, and now you want to be a career ambassador, when order to do that, you’ve got to sit through and be exposed to some of these things, you got to do some coaching, we got to do some things because somebody is going to come to you, as a student or peer educator, you might be the point the only point of contact that another student has so I’m going to educate you. And so then when you’re leaving, as a senior, you’ve already had that exposure, you have to reteach it, you have to peer teach it. And so you still don’t know all the things I think we all can admit, as well advocate and expose we are we’ve probably made some bad decisions. Somewhere along the way, I’m sure there’s a MBA program I might still be paying for. And I’m a doctor. But nonetheless, you live a little longer. But there were some key things that I knew coming out, right. And so what I can say about that senior class, is that that group gets to have that exposure, and they get to apply it right now. So they’re taking a little bit of their own, learn it, know it, earn it, apply it now. But they have a better understanding of how to play the long game once they finish school.

Tate

Thank you so much for that, Dr. Lewis, that the mentioning of I, what I hear is that each one teach one because I’ve been often after this journey, why HBCUs. And I said, because there’s a culture already on campus, there’s a history already embedded of this community of us wanting to each one teach one, I’m a leave you better than what I found you. And so talking about embedding and fit these financial securities within these existing programs, is changing the trajectory not only of that student in regards to retention opportunity, but when we dropped them in another community, the systems that they will be able to provide to that community, either in their professional or potential, just personal role. And that’s what that network effect is, that is what our history is written. And so it was really easy doing this with HBCUs. Because you didn’t have to explain it. Like we just know, I’m, you know, if I can give you the good information, you don’t take it up yonder, and you gonna share it out. So thank you so much, Dr. Lewis. for that. I’m going to pivot for a moment to Juniqui, who is also known as Jun. Hi, Jun, thank you so much for joining us. 

Hairston

Hi. How’s everyone today? 

Tate

Good, good. Good. June is a graduate of North Carolina Central University. And I have worked with June in the past. And so I know a little bit about June and she was kind enough to come on having had a coaching opportunity, having understood this space, but I don’t know that her story is so unique. As we get to Ashley, we’ll see that this data matches some of the data she’s going to share with us. But she wanted to come on and we wanted her here to speak from the perspective of not only an HBCU grads, but uh, as having managed the school system, student loans and where you are now post graduation. And what is that debt doing? Is it serving you? spill the tea, June. If you don’t mind, I want to start with would you mind sharing with us how much student loan debt you have? And did you know that it was going to be this much this far out because of interest.

Hairston

So right now I am sitting at, I want to say 72,000. I didn’t know that because when I left school, I was sitting at 50,000 for you know my degrees in my four years. So I was one of those people who tried to do, you know, the income repayment plan thing, but at the time, like because of my employment, you know, it just came out to not having to pay a balance because of my employment. And then with that, of course that affects your credit. So my credit plummeted. And it plummeted every year that I did that.

So I did this crazy thing and tried to go to grad school. On top of that, things didn’t work out with that. So I’m sitting on that day as well, which is included in the $72,000 right now. 

Tate

So you’re not alone. I did a podcast six months ago. I think that that was what it was time Have a l o. m, because you are not a loan either. And you many, Ashley is going to speak to us a little bit about that. And I won’t go strong into the numbers right now. But I will definitely mention that we know that black students hold higher debt than their counterparts. And we know this for various reasons. And it’s really important to begin, you’ll hear me say this and set that narrative, I want to be very clear about the narrative, there is an accountability piece to those who take out the loan, I hear you I serve you, my coaches are here to work with them. But on that same token, when you sign a piece of paper to get your education with the best intentions, that you’re going to take it and run and hit this and contribute to our society but yet you become so burdened with debt that you can’t even get, you know, to where you need to go. There’s a problem. And it’s a system problem. And it’s a problem that we have to be honest and candid enough to understand that if you are coming from a household who cannot contribute, as Dr. Lewis mentioned, to 0% of your, your, your son or daughter’s education, then that also likely means that you’re not going to be able to contribute to their food and securities, and or their housing potential securities is the additional burdens that come with that. And so we’re going to talk about that a little bit. Because if we peel back that layer, what we’re really talking about is the ability over history to build wealth in our community and our families, so that we successfully can continue through with the next generation to not only obtain their degree, but to be contributors in society in a holistic way without the burden. So with that, I’m coming back to June because we definitely got some more questions. Thank you for sharing that part. Ashley, June has already spoken on where she’s at as an individual. And we definitely want her to know she’s not alone. And I know that you have data, Ashley, that shares that I know that you do great research, and do you have a racial lens on this debt equally? And so at this time, I have a ton of questions for you. But what I want to know, because CRL is the data is – they really do capture data, I want to know what the data is telling us. And what about that data mimics the systemic racial barriers in the financial world that continue to contribute, in fact, this in a way such as it is. 

Harrington

Absolutely. Um, so I’m gonna go ahead and share my screen now. That’s all right.

So the data is telling us, I’m sorry, that we’re in a crisis, right? You’re absolutely not alone. When we say we’re in a crisis, there are over 44 million, almost 45 million people struggling under the weight of student debt. I have student debt, a lot of it. So we know we and there’s and there’s a reason, right, we know exactly how we got here. And black women are the ones who are struggling the most on student debt. So not only are you not alone, you’re not alone because most of the – a lot of people struggling with student debt look like us. And society has set it up that way. So we’re at $1.7 trillion in debt outstanding, and people are struggling 55%, that’s over half of us undergrads are unable to pay down their debt for the first three years after they graduate. In 2016, almost 70% of graduating seniors borrowed for college, and they borrowed an average of $30,000. For black students, it was 85%. And they borrow close to 34k. And there’s a lot of reasons why. You know, we’ve seen this jump in how we got to 1.7 trillion how we got to 45 million people. Absolutely. There’s more fuel, taking out loans. There’s been an enrollment growth more people than ever I’m going to call it was the good thing. We’ve opened up access, right. But what does that access look like? Is that access means that you can’t then do the things that we want folks to do after they go to college, then what kind of access are we talking about to us, that’s not meaningful access. And so more people are going to college. There’s also been expanded eligibility for federal loans. But also there’s been this shift from grant aid to loan aid at the federal, state and institutional level. The federal level, the Pell Grant has not kept up with the rising cost of college at the state level. As soon as student bodies diversified, as soon as we got the Civil Rights Act, students, people of color, black folks in particular, and women could go to school safely started disinvesting in higher education, and that has continued. And then after the Great Recession, they’ve had a $10 billion budget hole in their budget and where they get that money from, isn’t it from high risk. And so that didn’t mean that public higher education got cheaper, right? It meant that more of that cost was passed on to students and families and if we know the grant aid is has not been going Up income and wages are stagnant and how families make up that deficit, they make it up in loans, because not only is it more expensive here to take out more loans, but you have to go to college isn’t that a real choice, the majority of jobs since the Great Recession have gone to people with some form of post secondary education. And if you’re a person of color, you have to go to more school, right, you have to get that grad degree, you have to get that professional degree because you want to get the same amount of money that folks get with way less education because of labor market discrimination. So it’s not enough just to have a bachelor’s anymore. We know that we see that every day. And now we’re in the midst of a recession, a pandemic, where people of color have been disproportionately impacted. The level of job loss, the level of businesses that have closed, not to mention, you know, the lives that we have lost, this is all going to absolutely impact the way people continue to struggle with their student debt. So loans are for larger amounts, because the rise in tuition and fees and talked about take long people longer to complete, right if you have to take out all this debt, but you also have to work because it’s not just the tuition, it’s how you pay for food. It’s how you pay for books, it’s how you get to class and how you pay for gas, all those things, how you pay for childcare, right? And so all of that takes money, money that’s not always accounted for when we look at the sticker price. And so people have to work and if you have to work, then it’s gonna take you longer to graduate. You know, one of my favorite things that people say, as I worked my way through college, you can’t work your way through college. You can’t do that anymore. Because if you tried to, you have to work almost 60 hours a week, if you’re working almost 60 hours a week, because of what wages look like, how do you graduate in four years, or even six years, there’s no possible way, this idea you work your way through college is just not true. So we’re making less progress or paying higher balances, they’re more burdensome, there’s higher default rates. And there is more focus on income based repayment, which is a good thing, because that means it’s helping them to manage their debt better. But it does mean that a lot of folks have negatively amortizing loans, meaning that they are not covering them enough each month to cover their interest. And I’m one of those people. And it’s very sad when you look at your balance, and you plug your pay and lots of money every month, and nothing is happening. Right? So how do we get here, so black over more or less have to borrow to borrow more and struggle more of a payment, and that is the direct result of the racial wealth gap. This is a chart here that shows the racial wealth gap for black and black on black folks in this country. And and white folks and Hispanic folks and white folks. So black families have a 10th of the wealth of white families. Latino families have an eighth of the world as my families and as a direct result of public policy decisions, right being denied access to land, credit housing at every turn, not to mention, you know, you know, being property yourself. But at the outset, so all of that has led to this growth, this persistent racial wealth gap, the black homeownership rate today is lower than it was when we pass the Fair Housing Act of 1968, is actually the same as it was in 1898. Right? Think about that, that’s how far that’s how low our homeownership rate is. And when people think about how they’re going to send their kids to college, one of the first things I think about is their home equity. But if we have 44%, homeownership rates, we don’t have we don’t want a lot of us don’t own homes, but to we don’t have a lot of equity. And we lost the most after the Great Recession. Right. And it wasn’t just people who lost their homes. If you had foreclosed homes in your neighborhood, you also lost Now you also lost equity. And so in 2010, our communities were the most impacted by these predatory practices and our neighborhoods were devastated. We lost a trillion dollars in wealth that has never been regained. At the same time, again, go back to that $10 billion budget hole, go back to the Pell Grants not keeping all of that is happening together. And we get to a place where we’re at $1.7 trillion, and you got black people and other people of color struggling the most under the weight of that debt. So we just talked about this. black bars are more likely to default than any of the other groups 20 black ba graduates even are 21% of them or less are going to default versus 4% of white ba graduates, black bachelor’s holders, this is one of the specific that bothers me the most are actually more likely to default and white dropouts. Right? People black bachelor’s degree holders, people with a degree are more likely to default. And folks who have dropped out of college, why folks who dropped out of college, and all this, again goes back to this inability to build wealth and pass it on through generations. And so I like to say the blessing of debt crisis has a unique distinction of being both a product of the racial wealth gap and exacerbating it at the same time. I think that’s where I stop for this month. 

Tate

Well, Ashely, I could listen to you all day. Um, I think you brought it home, you know, you collectively shared a portion of some of what June was talking about. In regards to the repayment, but the payment is not going down. So the debts are not going to disappear. You spoke on what a black graduate with the degree is the default rate and why that is. And I appreciate not only the data, but the insight, I also appreciate that you When do you mention that that was her with its negative amortization, you spoke to that as well. And that tells me though, that the system is so broken, even for those who we believe could self navigate through it need assistance. So that you know, Dr. Lewis, we talked about this and, and your graduates that are coming out of the CSU, and looking towards the future six months out, they’re gonna have to make a student loan payment. And that’s those kinds of conversations that they’re able to have with the financial code sets assisting them at that forward thinking and planning. But can I tell you for all of that, if we don’t get something done with the policy and the legislation, then we will just continue to be knocking on that same door. So Ashley, if you could give me a little bit of what’s on the horizon? What hope shot Can you send June? Are they gonna get rid of some of this debt? What’s the suggestion coming out of CRL?

Harrington

That’s absolutely right. I think that and that’s why I really got into this work. Policies created this problem and created this crisis if we didn’t get her on our own. And so direct policy intervention has to be the answer, right? It can’t all be on us to try to build wealth in a system that wasn’t created for us to build wealth to try to be successful in a system that wasn’t created for us to be successful. And that is abundantly clear. When you look at all of these systems and how they interact. The world is on the horizon. CRL is advocating for annoying many other groups, to advocate for over 50 to advocate for $50,000 in debt cancellation per borrower through executive action. We think it’s not enough to tinker the margins, right? We have, you know, over eight repayment plans. Now there is there’s so many different ways and things to navigate to pay your loans, you have to deal with services, you have to deal with all this other stuff. We can’t fix the system, when we have $1.7 trillion outstanding, we can’t fix the system when we have 44 million people. And we can’t fix the system when we have people of color carrying the burden the most. So our first step, the way we fix this problem, we start with cancellation, any proposal to address the student debt crisis has to start there, we have to do something about the balances. Right now we’re gonna payment pause, you know, over 90% of the 1.7 trillion is federal debt. And so we’re in a payment pause that has been since the start of the pandemic, and it has helped a lot of folks, right. But if we come out of this crisis, we come out of the pandemic and we end this payment pause and balances and look the same, we have a major problem on our hand, because our economy doesn’t look the same. And it’s not going to look the same for a while. And we have to remember that was an economy that was already equitable, we didn’t enter the pandemic at the same place, our communities in inter the communities that enter the pandemic at the same place. And so if we want to come out of this, and we want to get people to possess the potential to not just survive, but thrive, because I don’t think survival should be the goal we should want people to do well, we have to start with debt cancellation. And then after that, there’s a couple of other other steps that we recommend. I’m gonna share my screen one more time. Maybe I don’t need to I don’t think I don’t think I need to I just keep talking. You know, we need to reform income based repayment. So we actually think that though Income Based Repayment supposed to be affordable, it’s not actually that affordable, we should it should be 8% of your income, it should be 15 years is that a 20 or 25 years because 25 years is a mortgage, that should be how long you have your student loans, it should be 15 years and after that it should be forgiven and you should be able to move on with your life. And and you know, black folks and black and Latino folks are more likely to be your income based repayment than any other group. And that means we’re in repayment the longest and we’re the most likely to watch our balances grow through either from reformed repayment has one plan, one income based repayment plan that is easy to access, even navigate. And so and forgiveness after 15 years. Also, we need to do something about what happens when you default. When you leave on a federal loan. It is bad, right? They have extraordinary collection powers. They are garnishing people social security. They are garnishing people’s wages. That is one that is on your credit. But also, all of these federal programs interact. We work on the Paycheck Protection Program and on FHA loans. If you’re in default on a federal loan or even if you were delinquent for program, you can get an SBA loan you can get an FHA loan, and if these are the loans that our communities have to rely on, black and brown borrowers are more likely to use FHA loans to access homeownership than any other group. We can’t get them because we’re in deep on federal loans. And we’re struggling when the folks who went to college should be the ones to be able to buy homes, and yet our homeownership rate is in the 40%, then we have a problem. So we have to do something about what repayment looks like, do something about default, we have to do we have to increase our investment and HBCUs and other mF five and give them what they need to help students need to drastically increase the Pell Grant so that we’ll end up here again in 10 years. And so we need a path to debt free college. But again, it all starts with cancellation. You can’t do all those other things if we don’t start here. 

Tate

Thank you, Ashley. I want to acknowledge this chat. Dr. Lewis, it says in our family systems may mean we have multiple generations accruing debt at same time, can you can you speak on that for me? Because I have seen during this engagement with HBCUs, we extend financial coaching to not only the students, but alumni and faculty. And I need to tell you that the alumni groups are coming, because they’re trying to manage their debt, but since their spouses debt and their children’s debt all at the same time, so it’s Can you speak on that for me a little bit, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis

So one of the things you know, that we do, and we’ve done the most most many of our institutions, and particularly the last two, three that I’ve been to where we have these recruitment efforts that target non traditional students, right, so we have an opportunity, particularly for those schools who’ve been able to successfully launch an online Academy or distance education programs completely. So we are recruiting, obviously, they’re your traditional age students, we’re also looking at those those parents who may have started and stopped out and so we’re offering those kind of benefits for them opportunity for them to come and finish their degrees, sometimes life happens, we start with two, three years, then something happens we are seeing an athlete, we have to stop by, we can’t do it anymore, we lose the scholarship. Then we go on in life. We have a number of our staff, who actually started at the institution, and then began working at the institution, they were finishing degrees, while they were doing that, all the while having children who have come of age in our in school. But we also have and I’ve seen this, actually, in all three of the HBCU that I’ve been where I’ve been able to contribute in North Carolina, where I’ve had a first generation student calm, and their progression has inspired a parent who never wants school to then enroll and start taking classes, right. And so on one hand, it’s the same as the give and take of the same gift in the curse. So they’re like, great, and Oh mom, how we’re gonna do it? Well, my mom’s older, she’s taking a loan to write, or dad or older, older brothers also taking that loan. And so now I’m in school, I’m almost my parent has gone, or it’s a staff person. scenario I laid out, a supervisor says like, Oh, we gotta be done. And so how are we going to quick news. So the school says, we’ll pay for a couple of classes, a waive the fee for a couple of classes, for you to accelerate, and go ahead and be done with this degree, the merit of that loan option. And so you end up having not just the multi generation, you may have the multiple generational in the household, and everyone is at a different level of speaking. And, of course, the I don’t know, June’s whole story, but I guess a sibling who inspires another sibling, and so then you’re all doing it. It all comes due around the same time. And particularly when you’re then talking about local communities, in schools that are pulling for small communities. And then Where am I going? I may go back to that community, actually, right. And so what are my opportunities because I still have these family obligations to be in Rocky Mount or in wives, Virginia, or in Chester, Pennsylvania, which is different than in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Right. And so Where am I now working, that is going to earn that earn and Garner that and then and for brown women at our institution, some of the highest majors, right Social Work, criminal justice, education, dutiful masterful careers. And but Public Service Loan Forgiveness is very unique and specific about where you can work and what you can do and how much you earn. And it doesn’t. So it’s down at work that we need please, anybody watching like dose by being going into the field, but part of the financial coaching and what I want to try to bring with these relationships in the partnership that we have is is a great you want to be a social worker. Excellent. You need to understand the social workers and master’s degrees in Philadelphia and New York still only makes $45,000 and the cost of living doesn’t match so you didn’t just set up who you are now, to be able to operate and live and operate in that career choice because it is not a high yield income field. And they won’t be.

Harrington

Can I add a couple things before we go ahead. I mean, I think that’s absolutely right. Right, we’re more likely to be in these fields. And even to be a teacher, you got to get a Masters out trying to be a teacher to still make a salary that doesn’t enable you to pay back your loans, right. And we meet teachers, we need social workers, and we need more black teachers, and we need more black social workers. But if now people are going to get scared off eventually, because they don’t think they can pay back our loan, or you’re a teacher, but you can’t even live in your school district because you can’t buy a house. They wonder, what are we doing, we have a problem. In public service, loan forgiveness, there’s all these Income Based Repayment programs. Very few people I’ve got actually gotten forgiveness on income based repayment, only 32 people have got Income Based Repayment forgiveness, the percentages for Public Service Loan Forgiveness are also low, right. So these things are not guaranteed. They require all this paperwork and bureaucracy. And it’s not a it’s not a given all these things are also things that people have to navigate. But I wanted to mention one thing on the on the multi generational loans, right? Parent PLUS loans, right? You know, you got people if when you’re when low income students when people are trying to go to school, and you have to make up that gap, because the way we’re calculating expected family contribution is as you still have me this much money, but you can’t even do this, all you get, then parents are having they got Parent PLUS loans to make up that gap. And so and you have situations where they haven’t take out Parent PLUS loans for their kids, while they’re still paying back their loans to, and this is, and this is just continue the cycle. So if I’m in school, and my mom, so came back for a load, and now I have loans, and so my mind, then then when I get ready to go to school, when I get ready to have kids, and they get ready to go to school, and I’ve never been able to build wealth, then we’re just this is just a cycle. So I’m going to take out loans again for them, because I don’t have the Home Equity, I don’t have all that stuff. So it just is a never ending cycle. And we got to stop somewhere. 

Tate

And I believe it’s these conversations in these relationships and partnership building. In naming it, you know, I would be remiss that having just, I can’t say come through a pandemic, but having experienced it of that first year, and in the wake of George Floyd and the climate and where we’re at today. And in these partnerships with HBCUs. And there’s some pause moments, you know, Ashley, what you share just now, I was just thinking through, it just continues to perpetuate, right. And again, I often lean into is, it’s a system that’s broken, but it’s systemic, because it’s by design, right. And that’s why it won’t it’s not, it’s broken, but it’s working for someone. And so this opportunity also afforded says 40 acres and a degree, to name it, to call it what it is to interrupt it. But it’s going to take all of these voices and all of these relationships. And we honor the students and alumni in the faculty that are accessing our services. Because while it is about looking forward and setting financial goals, and helping to guide individuals through a system that is not friendly and are kind, it is also about the data. And Ashley, I know you know that all of us on this call know data is what moves if I can’t see it, it didn’t happen. And so I want to at least for a moment, take time to, to kind of bring it all home in regards to the work that we’re doing, in tandem with with all of you that have joined us today is that it is because of our platform, and our staff system that we provide to organizations and financial coaches across the nation, that we’re able to collect effective data that we’re able to share with other organizations like CRL, put our names on on sign the sheets and the legislation on what those new things are that we’re chasing and looking for it, it’s because of the students that were engaged with. And the fact that we’re naming it, and we’re calling it what it is that these students are getting to the place of being in a position of advocacy for themselves. And so it’s really important this the relationships that we’re building in the work that we’re doing on these, these college campuses. Because as gleann interact with each one, we are able to collect effective data, we are able to tell honest narratives, not from the top down, but from the ground up. And so I just applaud the work that you all do. I applaud you June for wanting to go back and get it and we’re gonna get you through this repayment plan and get you to where you can obtain that education that you were further seeking. Because it’s not a dark day because you know why the light is shining on it. And it is bright, and it’s because of all of this work that we’re going to be able to enact some change. And I want to leave a few moments for any closing arguments that either of you may have or anything else you want to share about the work that you’re doing.

Dr. Lewis

I think for us, it is just crucial that I express that is important, particularly for my colleagues. So there are colleagues at other institutions who are not well versed and oftentimes will shy away from the things that they don’t themselves, I understand. And so I would never be able to sit down and tell somebody exactly how to fly through the financial coaching, because it’s not my personal strength. But I understand that given that fact that my background is in a place of perceived privilege. And I still need that support that is ever important for us to create these partnerships to give our students of things that may be foreign to us, or may feel uncomfortable. And so I just encourage folks to really consider what are the partnerships with Change Machine with organizations like the Change Machine, and to be able to offer those to their students and to push the envelope even if they don’t themselves have not had the experience directly. Because us shying away from what is unfamiliar, does a disservice to the students that we are supposed to be serving. 

Harrington

And I’ll just say, you know, join us in this push for cancellation. Call, tweet, email your elected officials and tell them you want cancellation. We are asking for it by executive action. So tweet at Joe Biden tweet as the vice president tweet at everyone tweet at Secretary Cardona Department of Education. But we as your senators and Congress, folks, too, because there is a resolution right now to call on President Biden to cancel that $50,000 per borrower. There are cities passing resolutions, state governments passing resolutions, there are agencies coming up before this, we need everyone talking about the need for cancellation, and the need for broad based cancellation as a racial equity issue as an economic stimulus because this absolutely will put money back into the economy if we if we do this cancellation. And so we just need people in this fight. I think we are we are close. We are much we are come so far. Over the past few years in the in this debate, but I’m $50,000 will camp Lynette for over 75% of people in the federal student loan program, it will be a game changer for a lot of folks who have just been trying to live their life. So join us in that bite. 

Tate

Thank you so much, Ashley. And I want to thank all the attendees and everybody who joined us in this conversation. And if you want more information we are going to provide you with Ashley has some great slides. So we’ll be able to send them out post this and then all of our information in order to reach myself and or Dr. Lewis, if you have some additional questions, and you will be seeing June again, we’re gonna follow her journey through this. And before you know it, she’ll be out there leading the pack of students and alumni and bedding and helping us to secure brighter futures for all we think you guys thank you and CRC. And thank you attendees.

Tate

Greetings Hello, hello. Hello.

Hairston

Hello, everyone.

Dr. Lewis

Good afternoon.

Tate

I’m excited. I’m so excited to answer questions you all may have. We see a couple of comments in the chat. I see somebody reached out to Dr. Lewis directly wants to make sure they can get a copy of this session. And so we thank you guys for your participation and your attendance. And we’re here for it. Do you have some questions for us? We’re ready to fire. Unfortunately, Ashley is not able to meet with us today. But I have my laptop handy. And she’s on standby. So if you guys have questions directly for her, I’m going to send them over to her.

Tate

So I do see there was a question that said, um, somebody is graduating in a week and they’re curious about how they’re going to address their some debt. I think June may have some experience with this. Maybe June Can you share with us some of the planning you did or did not do when you were graduating and what you would recommend to a student who’s thinking for Read in regards to six months from now.

Hairston

Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. Um, you hear me now? Okay, I’m here. Yeah. So I was one of those people who didn’t plan for my student loan payments, I just kind of just, you know, kind of went with the flow of what was to come. But I do encourage you to definitely get in contact with your student loan servicer. And make sure that you’re having a concrete plan and understanding of what it is that you’re going to need, you know, to pay what the terms are, you know, what your work situation employment situation is going to be like, just stay in constant contact with them and update them on what you’re doing, what you can afford. Just be communication, communication. And if you are able to make sure you put money aside, like save money, and have a budget on and make sure you’re working the student loan payment, or what your payments going to be into that budget. So you don’t have to worry about default or you know, those scary, big scary words like that. But yeah, that’s my advice.

Tate

Thank you, Jun, for sharing that. I don’t know if I may be having a couple of technical difficulties. So if I’m over speaking somebody, let me know. But thank you so much for sharing not only your personal experience in regards to that. And with all of what Jim shared, keep in mind that these campuses that we’re working with ecsu, especially as we just had some graduations happen, right? Like we’re in May, and our coaches are available to talk through those plans for you and with you to help you navigate those services and talk about what does a repayment plan look like? Is $5 really gonna get it? It’s not because Ashley just told us about that interest and that amortization and so, you know, access is available, and please access it and share it within your network. I see in the box.

Tate

Let me see you guys. I’m trying to read fast, fast, fast, fast. It looks like we got a couple of amens and oh, yeses. In regards to Dr. Lewis, some things you were sharing as it relates to the uncas Freddie’s accesses, I would get a chance to really talk about and I wonder if that community attendees, I’m sure are interested in is the impact of retention.

Dr. Lewis

If students are getting to door to personal finances in their long term goals, what does that look like for retention, and students graduating on time? Thank you. So retention is not as important obviously, for the student as they’re going through their own commitment and their gold of completion. But for each institution, that’s one of the ways that we’re able to look at our potential default rate and default default patterns amongst our students. So if we’re able to maintain and increase, maintain retention and increase that retention, then obviously we’re able to as an institution qualify for more it impacts our loan default rates. A lot of people don’t know that the default rate kind of goes in, there’s a lag. So if there’s a period of three years, that then maybe two years later is what you’re kind of held accountable for. So for in terms of that the institution, definitely, I’ll work through that. I’m glad that, you know, obviously talked about the opportunity that change machine offers in terms of supporting those recent graduates and for us not to be not to lean on our own understanding of how to get ready in that six month window. June is absolutely right, as well. And each one of you all and your institution, students certainly understand the financial aid counselor when they’re looking for money upfront. But there’s a whole entity in most universities that were a default manager that helps you to plan and process that immediately leading up to graduation and immediately after. So retention is one of the ways that we look at what is our potential

fund funding for the future. But also in terms of what we need to do from one of my other areas of in my portfolio is career development. And so we’re where we need to be focused on For those students who are here who are coming, who are coming back, and what are those degrees that they expect to obtain, so that we can make sure we’re partnering with employers, also that they are on the ready and that we’re following their recruitment and talent acquisition cycles. So it upon graduation, those students can be gainfully employed and better prepared for that debt management that loan repayment moving forward.

Dr. Lewis

Bridgit, I know you may be on a lag. There’s another question that is in our laughing it’d be great for you to talk through maybe there’s a question around what’s the best repayment option for retirees who have student Parent PLUS loans. So that might be something that you can talk through for folks.

Tate
Wouldn’t be remote session if my computer wasn’t doing what it’s doing. Welcome to our new reality.

Yes, I do see that question. And I’d love to be able to answer that. I got a few minutes. But I what I want to talk about is if you’re a retiree, that needs to be a whole nother question you have with the servicer? What is the affordability of the reality? Have you been able to really pay off that debt? We’re seeing this more and more, as we talked about recorded session about gyrations and trying to obtain education, and what the cost is looking like.

…ever to get the student loan people to stop calling her because she’s not paying it back. It’s not happening. Um, but we had to have a conversation. And it was because of my background that I was able to navigate that conversation. So Miss Abdullah, please reach out to us directly. And I’m happy to connect you with one of my coaches to help you navigate that conversation. Sure.

Tate
Any additional questions we see in here? Well, we thank all of you for attending the session, we look forward to continuing this conversation with the partners that we’re working with. But equally as important was really say a sincere thank you for to NCRC for seeing the value and having this whole for having the understanding the value of having this discussion. And as we all know, NCRC stands in the policy space. And they assist communities on a national level and moving policy. And so we’re not here by a while the question is, what our engagement and where he changed. And so we look towards all of you that have intended this session, to ask the questions to get involved. We will be sending links post this so that we’re able to share with you all of the communications that Ashley shared, she said reach out to by them. She said reach out to your local legislation. So we are all part of the solution. I don’t know collation of debt. Sounds pretty good to me, what say you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis
Well, as I said earlier, the fact that I’m still paying off an MBA loan and I am four years passed, my doctor would be excellent for me. So yes. And for our students that we serve, there is nothing. You know, there are these unique floating philanthropists who can drop a billion dollars or $15 million on on an institution, but a policy shift that included debt cancellation last fall in love a lot longer and certainly is the gift that keeps on giving.

Tate
Dr. Lewis, we said a mouthful right there. That’s it. So it’s not about that that one day and that one, that one? location. It’s about how can we do this in an equitable way. And we’re going to continue this conversation and sharing as we’ve all shared, the impact in the black community in communities of color is to some detriment in regards to our social on financial mobility. And so as we talk about cancellation, we also want to explore what is rest reparations look like in regards to student loan debt cancellation so that this can be equitable. And we can begin to run a race that is equal and tried to build our own social and financial mobility, I think, to lean it looks like we lost June along the way. But we thank you, Dr. Lewis, thank you for all of the support, you continue to give change machine and I look forward to continuing to working with you and your students.

Dr. Lewis
Thank you for leading in this platform and in this space. Thank you so much for NCRC for this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you, attendees. Bye

The CARES Act included numerous funding streams to support federal, state and local COVID-19 responses. A lesser known, but important source of CARES Act funding is the Coronavirus Relief Fund. Through this fund, the U.S. Treasury provided $150 billion to tribal, state and local governments to address unexpected expenses related to COVID-19. The fund is unique given the fairly high level of flexibility and discretion governments have in spending it. The Hope Policy Institute and other state advocates have been examining gaps and opportunities with these monies, both inequities and promising policy pilots. Three areas, in particular, include disparities in access to local government relief funding in the Deep South, disparities and promising models in small business relief funding, and direct cash assistance like local-level stimulus checks. Many states and local governments are also developing public dashboards to track their spending under this fund, making accountability and lessons learned possible for future reform efforts.

Without adequate attention, these state-level COVID-relief dollars are at risk of repeating the same inequities that existed pre-COVID. What are strategies for telling these stories for advancing an economic justice agenda in our own states? How can we use these findings to support the push for broader economic justice policies in other areas, particularly those aimed at closing the racial wealth gap?

Speakers:

• Diane Standaert, Senior Vise President of Policy and Advocacy, HOPE
• Charlane Oliver, Executive Director, MPA
• Felicia Lucky, President, Black Belt Community Foundation
• Veronica Briseno, Economic Development Director, Austin, Texas

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity. 

Standaert, 00:04 

For generations. So thankfully today we have an amazing panelist of speakers who are leaders in the American South who have been confronting these inequities head-on creating and innovating to ensure that COVID relief dollars receipt reached the communities who needed it most. And we hope in advancing and showing these solutions today around addressing inequities and state-level cares expending, we hope that it will provide some lessons learned for going forward in other situations, not only in additional relief monies, but other times in which financial resources need to be deployed to the communities who’ve long been left out of them. And so the some of these key takeaways that we hope you’ll get from our session today include looking at new tools and strategies that community leaders can use to make sure their voices are at the table and making these decisions. If you’re a government leader, or a funder, or even a bank, looking to invest in communities, how to maybe some takeaways from this session include centering community voices, and building equity into the front-end decision-making of those funds. And then we have another opportunity right in front of us to not repeat some of these lessons and to do better as we deploy $1.9 trillion of money through the American rescue plan that is happening right now at the federal, state and local levels. And then finally, we will he’ll hear about today, some of the documentation of the disparities and inequities that occurred through the state level, state-level relief money. And this is important to continue lifting up and not forget our history, as we think about where targeted support is going to be needed. In the future. This is going to be particularly important as we are confronted with a narrative that the economy is returning and people that all the relief has been given out people should be on their own as a move forward in the next phase of, of recovering from COVID-19. You know, the reality is, as we move forward into the next phase, white communities will be doing so with hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars more and relief aid that they received, that black and Latino and communities of color simply could not access last year. And so I’m going into, we’re going to talk specifically about one stream of money from the cares act. And again, that’s just the context for today’s discussion. But we hope the lessons are applicable in other situations. So the many people might be familiar with the cares act, because for a number of reasons, but maybe namely the paycheck Protection Program, which provided 600 and $600 billion worth of business relief aid that primarily locked out black and Latino-owned businesses from that aid. Well, there was another stream of money from the cares act called the Coronavirus Relief Fund, which deployed $150 billion to states and large cities and counties. What was unique about this fund is that it could not be used for general revenue replacement, but had to be used for unexpected COVID-related expenses. This could be small business relief, rental assistance, pp food support, all kinds of things that communities really needed in real-time last year. And so we’ll hear from Charlene Oliver from Nashville, Tennessee in just a minute about how community-centered communities most impacted by the pandemic were at the table and making the decisions of the priority. Uses of those funds. One of the other permissible uses is that some states passed this money along to smaller local governments in their states. But many did so by using a reimbursement model of deploying this money, so the local government can only get the money, they had the money to spend in the first place. We will hear from Felicia Luckey from the Alabama black belt Foundation, about the challenges that that cause for communities in the black belt, but also how they innovated to overcome those challenges. And then the third thing that was unique was the vast amounts of public data and reporting that was required by this pot of money. And so we saw a lot of states and local governments, producing dashboards and publicly reporting how this money was spent. Of course, there is uneven amounts of data that we can talk about, but we have Veronica Brazil,  from the city of Austin as the chief economic recovery officer to talk about how the city of Austin use this data along with other equity tools to make sure as they were pursuing an equitable recovery throughout the process. And so this is the context of the discussion today and some of the things that we will be covering. So as for hope, hope, is a black-led credit union community development financial institution and policy institute that is located in the deep south, reaching Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Mississippi. And we have been primarily engaged in the advocacy and accountability around two streams of money through the Coronavirus Relief Fund, one around small business relief and the other local government relief. And I just want to highlight two examples that we have encountered in our work that I think really show the extent of the disparities that we are talking about with this state-level money. So the first example I just want to show is funding from the state Tennessee small business Relief Program. Tennessee essentially set its small business relief program funded by the cares Act is a sort of essentially a stimulus check for small businesses. Unfortunately, they used a racially biased formula to determine the payment sizes for these checks, which the end result was 90% this $200 million pot of money 90% of this money went to white-owned businesses, and less than 10% going to minority-owned businesses. This is going to have a lasting impact on the health and well-being of these businesses and ultimately, the ability to close the wealth gap in the future. The next example I want to lift up is Louisiana, Louisiana, like Alabama, and many other states used a reimbursement model to deploy money to local governments last year. And you can see this is just one example of how parishes that were primarily white, were able to receive more of the money that they requested than parishes where the majority of people are people of color. And you can see that this disparity widened for parishes that were rural, and then have been in poverty for more than 30 years. For those parishes where the majority of people are people of color, they received just about a third of what they requested reflection of both the need and possibly the challenges in accessing this money. But for similarly situated white parishes, they received over 73% of the money that they requested. So these are the disparities that are going to last and have implications for a long time and they had real-time implications. At the time of COVID-19. His communities were struggling to stay open to meet the health needs of their residents, and everything else that people were trying to do stay safe and stay alive. And so this I think this underscores the importance of the solutions that we’ll hear about in the rest of the panel today that have been innovated from the ground up and also help Pat create a path forward of what we do next. So with that, I will turn it over to Charmaine Oliver from the equity alliance in Nashville, Tennessee. 

Oliver, 08:19 

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being here. I will run through a project that my organization spearheaded this past summer, called the Our Fair Share Nashville campaign in partnership with Mayor john Cooper and our Metro Council. We have a 40 member Metro council here in Nashville, Tennessee.  This is a little bit about At the equity Alliance, we were founded in November 2016 by six black women, including myself. It was drawn out of frustration after the inequities of our government after the presidential election of 2016. And after the uprising of Black Lives Matter, and how we do not center, black folks in our policymaking. We are a statewide grassroots organization that challenges systems of inequity and white supremacy. We are focused on building people-centered power to equip more black folks to be civically engaged, and how we’ve made a name for ourselves as championing voting rights, racial equity, and economic justice and how those issues intersect in the black community. We have been able to really be an unapologetic trusted messenger in the community, which is how we were selected to launch the Our Fair Share campaign. A little bit about how we got here, as you know, the timeline to launch the offer share initiative. As you know, Congress passed $2 trillion and COVID relief money. In April of last year, Nashville received $121 million of that care Zach funding to combat the Coronavirus. Shortly after May 18, I was asked by the mayor’s office to be a part of a task force that would help him come up with really innovative and creative ways of how to spend the cares act money. And so prior to the announcement of Task Force, I put together 24 recommendations for how to spend the money creatively that would impact and help people of color in the city. A day later, coop john Cooper convened this advisory group to explore how to spin the cover relief money. And we weren’t strategic and announcing those spinning recommendations so that the community knew that we were advocating on their behalf. Should the mayor choose to use some of those tactics. In June, we had conversations with the mayor’s office, they decided to deploy $24 million for education to purchase laptops for every student in the Metro Nashville school system. Later that month, the metro Council passed an ordinance to approve all of the cares Act funding, primarily because the power at that point rested in the hands of the mayor and our Metro council essentially did not trust him to make the right decision. Because the advisory group that I was asked to be on I was the only community-led organization that actually touched people on the panel. It was made up of lobbyists consultants, and basically his mayor’s friends that was going to be a rubber stamp. So the council said no, we’re gonna approve that money. And later they announced a nine-member COVID financial oversight committee to decide how the remaining $55 million would be spent about 55 of that 20 121 million. Several of it went got to go back into the mayor’s budget to reimburse him for what has already been spent to combat the virus. So we’re really talking about $55 million. We met with the mayor and we advocated for the equity Alliance to be the go to organization to receive some of that money to deploy it into the community. So we were essentially asking them to in partnership with other black-led organizations, and Latino-led organizations to be the hub to deploy this money into the community to make sure it got to the right people. The mayor Sophos came back and said, well, we’ll give you 500,000 to do a needs assessment. So we said okay, that’s fine. So we launched the needs assessment on July 23. We did it at the mayor’s COVID press conference. And a week later that we were asked to give good results back. So this is how the program looked in real-time. I want to show you a quick video. 

Video

Hello, my name is Lelann Evans. I’m the project manager here

 natural dollars from the federal care. Well we are going with our fair share is making sure that the black and brown communities Hi, I’m Brittany community engagement director our fair share. 

We’re here today to hear from the brown community. our fair share national and equity Alliance. We’re with AI studio and Madison, Tennessee. People that may have been overlooked. Today, last minute. Women has paid her putting money in right hands and so we’re helping them out during this difficult time, the equity Alliance collaborate with Mayor John Cooper office to launch our fair share Nash calm a site survey alone black and brown Nashvillians to assess the issues they’re facing. We want to have some preliminary information by the end of the interview, live it and use it again in August. But this survey is going to be ongoing and we know that the needs of the COVID are going to shift as time progresses, with $121 million allocated to the city of Nashville due to Care Act organizers that are pushing hard to make sure minorities aren’t left in the dark, we want to be at the table, we want to pick up the menu. And we want to make sure that other people have an opportunity to enjoy a meal as well. There’s a lot going on right now. And I get it. But there is a way for your voice to be heard, by filling out the Our Fair Share survey by filling out your senses and registering to vote. And to take it a step further. On November 3, going to the polls to make sure your voices heard. get out and vote, fill out your census and make sure you get your fair share. 

Oliver, 16:08

So I wanted to give just a little bit of background and context around the Our Fair Share Nashville initiative. So at the time, Nashville was as most states with experienced an uptick in COVID cases, one of every three COVID deaths were black people, and one every three COVID cases were from the Hispanic community. So our infection rates were the highest in communities of color. We also made up a disproportionate share of the population in the 12 top hardest hit COVID hotspot, which is where we concentrated our survey. The poverty rate for the African American population in Nashville is 24.7% higher than any other right than any other urban city that has a high concentration of black population that includes Atlanta, St. Louis, Houston and many other places. In 2020, we just got data back earlier this week that showed during the pandemic, the black unemployment rate was astronomical at 23.9%. We made up 40% of the unemployment cases across the state. It’s very embarrassing and very dismal. When you compare that to the rights of any other ethnic demographic, we also were facing in Nashville a deadly tornado that hit us on March 3, which was super Tuesday, election day. And it hit us in North Nashville the heart of a predominantly historic black community, which we had to also rally around the pandemic hit us the same week that the tornado came so we weren’t dealing with a multitude of crises. And then later that summer of 2020, as you know, the George Floyd murder, really set off ratio and civil unrest and protests that we also participated in has to put our bodies on the line. So those are all the things that were happening in the background that really contributed to us saying, look, black folks are suffering from three pandemics, a pandemic of right supremacy, the pandemic of institutional racism, of poverty in the pandemic of 2020. The Coronavirus and the Coronavirus pandemic really exacerbating all of the issues that we already knew were impacting black and minorities disproportionately. We targeted our approach in the top 12 zip codes with COVID hotspots. If you overlay that with where particularly minorities and communities of color are living in Nashville, these are pretty much the same areas of town, South East Nashville along the inner corridor. And up north is where you sort of see those concentrated neighborhoods. population in Davidson County, just to give you an idea, we are as black folks, nearly 30% of the population are Hispanic 10%. But if you look at the population in just those top 12 zip codes, that increases to about 32%, black, and 13%, Hispanic, and Antioch to Southeast Nashville area, it is a high concentration of new Americans, we have the largest Kurdish population in the country, in Tennessee in Nashville. So we had a multitude of communities that were suffering. So how do we do it? How do we launch this arch fair share campaign that other cities can take off take with them. So we really wanted to focus on vulnerable populations, underrepresented communities, communities of color, and target those top 12 zip codes. We knew we couldn’t survey all of Nashville. So how do we strategically narrow that down, and we chose the top 12 zip codes that were had the highest cases. And then we wanted to focus and talk to directly minority-owned business owners and residents. So our rationale was that, you know, there were when we looked in the van found there were about 62,000 households in those zip codes. And our target was to get a 5% response rate, which was roughly a little over 3000 survey respondents. And mind you, we had to do this project that the mayor’s office asked for two data points. One initially when the cares that committee met a week later from when we launched and then they wanted a full report in September, which would have been about six weeks later. So we had to really rush into this project in a really rushed way. Unfortunately, some of our core strategies one, we are a trusted messenger in our community. The equity Alliance is trusted in the black community. And just in general, we are seen as a political powerhouse. And so our voice carries a lot of weight. So we as a black-led organization had deep connections in the community. We wanted to hire unconventional talent. Black talent, Leland, as you saw in the video was a young black leader. We hired him as the project manager, grassroots organizing we wanted to go with the people are using a color coalition collective impact model, we wanted to get buy-in from the community, as well as use a multitude of data collection points. Some of the core strategies that you saw in the video, we were able to hire a project team in 13 days, we launched a website, our fair share national calm and four days, we were able to hire over 112 community canvassers to go out to local businesses and places to capture surveys. We also used community partners to pay we paid them a stipend of about $1,000 a month to share the officer Sharpe survey with their networks and on social media. And we also were in the community we we did media interviews, and that resulted in 8500 survey responses in just under six weeks. Some of the ways that we were able to capture that data, obviously we utilize a research polling company to capture the initial 1000 surveys that we could give to the mayor’s office for their initial report. But then we also did door-to-door canvassing, we had an open-access survey online on our website. And we also had in-depth interviews with small business owners and we hosted focus groups at local businesses to capture their voices as well. One of the questions that we asked and I say right was how do you want the city to use the funds use your taxpayer dollars. And so we pitched this as a way to say we have a direct line to the mayor’s ear and in the metro Council, fill out this survey so that you can get your voice heard 35% of respondents said they wanted mortgage and rent relief. 23% said they need small business grants 16% said use it on food and nutrition and utilities. And then 12% said use it for COVID testing and contact tracing. As a result, the mayors, the metro council care the committee listened and their initial allocation was resulted in 13 point 8 million being deployed for mortgage rent utility assistance. And I put an asterisk by that about 3.8 million and about 3.8 million of that was later released. And then 5.7 million for small business grant of that 30% had to be allocated for small businesses. So lastly, key lessons learned we have a community engagement problem in Nashville. Over 60 to 84% of respondents didn’t even know how to access the resources. We the money was given to United Way. And we said, Look, how does people even know that United Way has more mortgage and rent relief money. And so we really need to think about how we do service delivery. And making sure that funds distribute distribution is equitable trust any black leadership and not making assumptions that we cannot handle large sums of money, federal money to distribute resources. So I’ll leave it at that. And you can if you want to read the full report, go to our fair share. nashville.com. Thank you. 

Standaert, 24:30 

Thank you, Charlane. Amazing, so many questions, I am sure. And thank you for the work and for sharing that story with us. I’m going to go ahead and turn it over to Felicia lucky but if you have questions for Charlane, please drop them in the chat. And we’ll hopefully get to them at the end or follow up in a minute. But thank you so much. And with this, I will turn it over to Felicia from Black Belt committee foundation. 

Lucky, 24:54 

Great Well, good afternoon, everyone. And thank you so much for the opportunity to share a little bit about the Black Belt Community Foundation. I just want to say kudos to Charlane and I am in the efforts of Our Fair Share. And I saw in the chat where others are interested in doing that in Alabama. And I was like if we could only be so fortunate to move in that direction. But thank you for a chance to talk a little bit about the Black Belt community Foundation’s recoverable grants program. As you see this map of Alabama, if you look at the places with the most deeply red or Maroon colors on the map, that pretty much look like a belt around the waist of the state of Alabama, most of those counties represent the black belt area. So this black belt is an area that is really noted as one of the most historically significant regions in the United States. Most folks think black belt with reference to martial arts. But it’s not it’s because of the black topsoil that is very fertile. And it was that topsoil that made cotton King and additionally continued to feed into many of the systems that continue to hold our region down. So a lot of the work that we’re doing is was initially established through the black ball Community Foundation in 12, of the of the counties of Alabama, 67 counties, and the work that we were doing during COVID, we expanded our reach to cover a total of 16 counties. And all 16 of those counties are right in the middle of the state of Alabama, and are the darkest red colors. Now those 16 counties represent 1/5 of the state’s total population of a little over 264,000 individuals. So very similar to what we heard from Charlene, the black folk Community Foundation was established and has unapologetically as well become a trusted and helpful connector in our community. And we were established very similar to what we just heard earlier is that while many funders or resources often don’t make it to areas, because of as Charlene mentioned, because saying that a lot of blacks in positions cannot afford, will cannot manage those resources. We’ve had very similar conversations because we’re rural, and we are a black-led organization, that there’s not capacity to handle the resources. So that in itself does not that in itself is not the case at all. But as we continue to move on. And if you will advance this, Diane, if you’ll continue to move on, we’ll see that through the cares act, that the state of Alabama had actually been allocated a total. I mean, just an in total that was that made us extremely excited. We had $1.9 billion through the relief fund that was allocated to the state of Alabama, very excited to hear about that and the state and region that needed resources. But then there was a catch. These dollars would be available, but only on a reimbursement basis as we just heard Diane talk about Louisiana, doing very similar. So the state of Alabama decided to take that 1.9 billion and have that 1.9 billion to allocate 250 million for cities and counties with each of those receiving $125 million. Now as a result of hearing this, I am a proud Daughter of Alabama’s black belt. I was born and raised in Sumter County, and I have the privilege of serving at bbcs headquarters in Selma, but spanning those now 16 counties that we cover, and in doing this work, the one thing that I knew with certainty is that many of the communities that we would work that we are working with would not have the resources to spend an allocation and then receive an allocation back So then BB CF jumped in to say, How can we come a connector? Now I want to just explain a little bit of why the connector the connector needed to be in place? Well, it was because the state provided this historic amount of money, remarkable amount of money on a reimbursement basis. So when you’re dealing with some community, some municipalities that have populations of 300 or 500 people, some cities and towns whose allocation from the cares Act funds were larger than the actual budgets. You know, when I think about random, Burke had a budget of about $25,000, and friend and burgers and Wilcox County, which is one of the persistently poor counties in the state of Alabama in the nation. But they have a $25,000 budget, but the allocation was around $38,000. So how will this community then be able to spend 38,000, and then wait to be reimbursed for that. So this is where bbcs saw the opportunity to really step in to be a connector. Now we are smaller Foundation, especially compared to many of those throughout the state. How can we actually do this work, we cannot do this work alone. But we had the fortune of connecting with hope credit union. And through this connection, we were able to then establish a recoverable grants program. But before we were able to establish this grants program, if you will move to the let’s see, next slide. Yes, as we were working, I’m sorry, you had the correct place. As we were working to establish the COVID-19 Access Program, what we did is we pulled together many of our mayors, our commissioners, city council folks and informed some of them who had no knowledge and an allocation was even made to them. Now, I know that many of us know quite a bit about broadband or lack thereof in many areas, and the black belt of Alabama is an area that is really strained because of the lack of broadband. So for many of our mayors, they did not know they had an allocation, we first informed them. And then we said how this is how we want to help you access these dollars if you can. And they said we need to help thank you for stepping into this space. And so with that, we were able to then join forces with hope and establish and then to establish a guarantee loan loss pool and through this pool, part of what we did is we actually worked to establish a line of credit with hope. But it took some, as my grandma always was say there’s more than one way to skin a cat. But it took some effort to really pull this together. And it was just some, I guess a little bit of ingenuity to say how can we make this happen? How can we make these resources available. And instead of an outright grant program, we were able to do a recoverable grant because we didn’t just have over 18 I think it was $18 million that was allocated to our 16 counties, we didn’t have $18.5 million to grant out to come back. So we had to be smart, we joined forces with hope we actually secure we raised the dollars through a Guaranteed Loan loss pool to secure enough resources to secure a $1 million line of credit through hope. And we had partners from the state of Alabama’s philanthropic community, from the corporate community, and even other foundations from other spaces who stepped in, and then hope stepped in to not just give us the line of credit, but to also be willing to take some risk to allow us to make sure our communities could be served. So part of what is very frustrating when you live in an area such as a black belt, is when you feel that your community is made to feel that you should not have access to these resources, as we’ve seen, and it is unfortunate, it’s an unfortunate system that we must dismantle and change. But it basically said because of our zip code, we did not have to worry about mitigating the spread of COVID in our areas, and nothing could be farther from the truth. Every life and the black belt is equally as important in lives in any other areas that we have. So we established this recoverable grant program. We connected with our mayor’s with our city with our commissioners, and we actually did loans of up to $50,000. They were purchased what they needed, we would give a grant to the city or municipality, they would purchase what they would need from our grant. And now this is a long process and I want to remind you this was in a very short window of time, they would purchase what they need, then submit their reimbursement to the state of Alabama, who had been repaid the entity, the entity within repay the blackball Community Foundation, the foundation within reimburse the line of credit so bear long process in a short window of time, when you’re working in increments of $50,000, there were some exceptions, we had a local university, Selman University, who was one of our partners that we were able to provide funding to do that with. But the biggest piece of what I like to leave from this story and the actions that we had to take is that it required a non-traditional way of doing business. And so oftentimes, most folks think that you have to have someone from the outside coming in to solve the problems at the byteball Community Foundation, we believe very strongly, that those who are proximate to the problems are also proximate to the solutions. So we believe in being on the ground working with the residents of the black belt, and talking about what the problems are identifying those and also in crafting solutions together. So the COVID 19 access program that was offered through the black belt Community Foundation could not have been done through the Community Foundation alone, it could not have been done with hope alone. But we were able to come together to say this is what we need to do to make sure that we can bring over a million dollars into our community in a very short window of time. One of the lessons that we learned very early on is that many of the residents in the area, many of the leaders in the in our communities, were very skeptical about accessing the dollars. And I do believe it is because we oftentimes operate from such a point of scarcity, that is very difficult to accept that when resources are made available. And so there was a lot of time that had gone by and the foundation made a stance to take out ads in local papers to say, Hey, folks, these dollars are out here for your communities, how will you be protected from your from COVID? How is your community protecting you. And because of that, then we saw a little bit of push a movement for many of the local leaders and was very unfortunate that we had to take that step and spend those resources that otherwise could have been spent on something else. But that was what was needed in order for us to get movement. And we were excited because we were able to do that and serve, you know, make loans to serve a population of over 60,000 of if communities that we knew we were helping and to be able to put nearly a million dollars back into our communities. Next slide, Diane. And this isn’t just me saying how excited we were. But this is Mayor Walter Porter, who’s the mayor of EFS, Alabama, which is located in in Sumpter County, and Walter is actually a native of Epps, Alabama, he’s a small business person there. But they had a grant of $23,000, which was nearly half of their operating budget. And they bought PP and those items that were approved by the state. So when you look at his testimony says that it was a blessing to receive this funding. And we know that we were because we were able to do this, we talked with several mayors such as mayor Porter, who said, we would likely only been able to access maybe 1/3 of this a 1/4 of these dollars, had this recoverable grant program not been in place. So at the end of the day, we’ve come to the conclusion that rural matters, black-led organizations matter and actually have the capacity to do the work that needs to be done. What I love about our fair share was that there were not prescribed solutions to what needed to happen. But community came together to work to make it happen. And you will see that resonating very well and what happened through the black belt community Foundation’s recoverable COVID-19 access program for our communities. So thank you so much for allowing us to time to share our story. Oftentimes, we say the black belt of Alabama, which we know that Selma is, the heart of it is where are we located, where we are located. We know that much of the history of Selma has actually also dictated what happens in the world. So thank you so much for the opportunity. With that. I’m going to turn it over to Diane. 

Standaert, 37:55 

Thank you. Thank you, Felicia, what incredible work. And you know, wish there wasn’t a need to create such a program should have just gotten the money directly. But think that doing so has shown that all the power and strength that you all have every day in the communities in the black belt. And so we’ll look for again, if you have questions for Felicia, please drop them in the chat and look forward to getting to them in just a minute. So with that, I’m going to go ahead and turn it over to Veronica from the city of Austin to give us a different perspective as someone who is in charge of administering the funds and the steps they took to build equity into the front end of their decisions. 

Briseno, 38:37 

Good afternoon. I’m happy to be here with you today and talk a little bit about what we have done in the city of Austin. I am the chief economic recovery officer for the city of Boston and I have been responsible for our economic recovery efforts in Austin. Know the next slide. So just a timeline of our response to COVID. And we did try to move swiftly in Austin, March 2020, our mayor declared it a local emergency. Our city manager assigned me in this role in mind. When we’re not going through a pandemic. I’m the economic development director for the city of Austin. In April, we launched our first set of local economic support grant and loan programs for Austin businesses. And then June 2020, our City Council adopted our COVID 19 spending framework, which included cares act allocations, as well as other allocations. Excellent. We really built our recovery response on four main elements or pillars. We looked at economic recovery for residents and businesses. We quickly established a one-stop-shop, we realized that because we had multiple departments working in recovery, we needed to have a landing page for folks to find resources. We also provided real-time and interactive dashboards, and I have the links on there later in this presentation. But we thought it was really important to show to be transparent and just show in real-time where those dollars were, were being distributed in our community. And then we created diverse economic recovery focus groups. For every focus group, we took a lot of time looking at The racial makeup of the group gender makeup, as well as, for example, or food and restaurant group, making sure we had the small restaurants, family on type restaurants, as well as the more well known or larger restaurants. Next slide. So as I mentioned, Council passed the economic recovery spending framework in June, they dedicated 103 point 2 million for economic support. These programs were allocated through many programs and helped multiple stakeholders, including individuals and households, small businesses, nonprofit organizations. And when we’re looking at nonprofits, we were looking at nonprofits from the perspective of a nonprofit as a employer, and then the city of Austin, we because we are the state capitol, we have quite a few. A lot of nonprofits located here, we provided assistance to our creative sector workers and businesses, childcare providers, and as well as worker and customer safety and workforce development and utility bills assistance. Next slide. So this is a look at these programs. I won’t read each one. But this is a calendar of the past year, and how we, how we went out how we implemented these programs. We had a variation of programs. And as you can see, some of them were released two rounds of funding so that if an individual continued to have that need, we were able to continue to meet those needs. Next slide. So overall, there was 12 programs that we administered, we distributed $115 million. Through these programs, we served over 200,000 households and 1600 businesses. We also assist 1000 of austinites through additional support services and programs, such as we created an Austin Civilian Conservation Corps. This was modeled after the Great Depression and the workers program that resulted from that, but looking at how can we employ austinites and things like public art, and different projects that we have in our community, the Austin mental wellness support line, we realized very quickly the need for mental support for folks that are in these industries that were so hard hit. So we provided that assistance, health care access, again, we realize the need when fighting the pandemic. And so many of these industries are areas where folks do not have health insurance. And so we wanted to make sure that we’re doing what we can to provide access. We provided business coaching virtually at no cost to help businesses look at what was what the reality was for their business and help give advice on steps to take to stay just to succeed through this. We looked at deferred city property tenant payments, we were able to allow a put into place in an anti eviction ordinance so that folks would not be removed from their properties. And we also had a utility discontent, connection moratorium so that folks didn’t lose their utilities as well. So some of the things that we did to provide programs equitably. First, we made sure that we translated everything into multiple languages, not only Spanish but Chinese, Arabic and Vietnamese. We partnered with our mobile Ethnic chambers of commerce, we’ve made sure that we worked with them as an ombudsman or arm of our city to really get the word out and help folks receive assistance. We funded community-based organizations to advertise programs and offer technical assistance. We call these organizations, our community champions. So we wanted to work with nonprofits that really could have a far reach in our community and let folks know about what the what programs were available. We published application questions and required documentation several days before the grants open. So we’re really looking at the populations that we wanted to reach, we made sure that folks had time to get their materials prepared and respond to the information requested. We promoted grant programs via community-specific media outlets, we worked with our media outlets that we know are prominent in our communities of color, so that we are we weren’t getting the word out there the far reach. And then finally, we partnered with our equity office, the city of Austin has an equity office that was integral and reviewing our guidelines and making sure that we weren’t just disproportionately you not providing a fair opportunity across the board. So some of the examples of what we did within the programs for our Austin live music venue preservation fund this is about this is $5 million. When we looked at this particular fund, Austin prides ourselves we pride ourselves on being the live music capital of the world. Live music venues themselves, though, they’re just not that many owned by people of color. So we knowing that that was a factor and a concern. We worked with any are required any applicant to attend three racial equity workshops and create an equity strategic plan before they received their grant. We did this to really get like music venues to think outside the box of how could they be more welcoming to communities of color, and how could they have a far reach in our community, and the Austin nonprofit relief grant, which was $6 million, we scored applicants using a matrix that include criteria for need vulnerability and equity. As a result of this approach, most funded nonprofit search communities of color, and people of color compromise more than two thirds of the awards of the board’s membership. So we really wanted to make sure that we were creative about how to provide an equitable playing field there. In the Austin small business relief grant, which is 18 point 6 million. We also used a matrix that included criteria for need building equity, half of the program, funding that was distributed, the applicants that received this funding was scored higher, our score the highest according to this matrix, the remaining 50% of the fun was awarded by a random lottery. So we wanted to try to give folks a heads an extra advantage if they if the business was owned by a person of color. So as a result of this, more than 50% of the applicants were nonwhite and more than 50% of the applicants. I’m sorry, I can’t read that. I think it says we’re women, maybe but that’s okay. Oh, there you go. And most grantees were women. Thanks. So the dashboards I mentioned early on. And all of these are available on at x recovers Comm. But you can see each of these programs, not only has this information dissected by demographic, we also have it available by council district So Cal members could see how that informs how the funding was distributed. And just it’s layers and layers of information. I’m very proud of the work my our team did on this. And this is something that we intend to carry into everything we do as an economic development department. Slide and this is the website that I just mentioned. So if for any additional information, please visit at x recovery COMM And this is the One Stop landing page was talking about where we really wanted to make it easy for folks to come. We also thought it was important to have what I learned is called a vanity name. But at xx recovery calm as with many city organizations, our normal websites are very clunky and long, and it’s hard for people to remember so we thought this was easy. It’s easy for me to communicate when speaking and it’s easy to remember. Next slide and record For our focus groups. So as I mentioned, we were very thoughtful and intentional about how the focus groups were created. We broke them down by industry, the, the industries we chose were ones that were hard, the hardest impacted by the pandemic, with the exception of manufacturing, we included manufacturing, because we really wanted to look at some of the successes they had and being able to stay afloat. We also had a cross-sector industry. So we included organizations that represented workers rights, as well as our chambers of commerce, and really looked at across the board, how can we make How can we provide relief and have a guiding principle moving forward. As a result of all this work, the group’s identified 45 opportunities, we turn this into an economic recovery framework. And we really, we really, were impressed by the work the hard work groups did. But it was also interesting to see that there was a lot of common themes, even though they were in different industries. So it was a great opportunity to see some things come out of that as a result. And that concludes my presentation. I’m happy to answer any questions. Thank you. 

Standaert, 50:09 

Thank you so much, Veronica. And for all the work that you and your team did, I think just really showing some concrete examples of what is possible when what community what other local governments can do and what community leaders can be asking for as well as lessons to keep in mind for distribution of funds. So I think if we’re all able to come back onto the screen and answer, we have a good few minutes to answer any questions that might have come into the chat. So I can’t see the chat. So I don’t know if I’m Kaylee will let us know if there’s any questions that have come in. I know there’s some great, okay, so I do know, there’s some questions that come in, and Felicia mentioned just around connecting on some of this work. And that is the goal of this panel of replicating some of these amazing models. I think so often we talk about the disparities and the challenges and the problems, but really wanted to focus on like, these are some real concrete, you know, solutions that can be lifted up by others. And, and, and more. So I guess maybe while we wait for some additional questions, I’m actually wondering, you know, is the question for any of you around how you’re thinking about the lessons learned from this incredible work that you all just did, and how you’re trying to extend that with the money that’s now coming down through the American rescue plan. And making sure it gets to the communities in a way that it that it needs to? So I’ll open with that, if anyone has initial thoughts to share. 

Oliver, 51:48 

Yeah, thanks, Diane, um, one of the sort of revelations that came out of the work that we were doing, especially with working with some of our minority businesses. And Felicia, I think you touched on this a little bit where the money had to be reimbursable. And so we have a challenge with making sure that our black-owned businesses are self employed, entrepreneurs are in a position to compete for these dollars that are coming down the pipeline, we know that it came with some very short deadlines that you had to get back the documentation that the state needed, and some of those things and accounting is, you know, something that all businesses don’t necessarily have in house or an operations person. So having to turn around these applications and grant applications to get some of this money is a challenge when you’re all things in your business, especially for minority business. So that’s something that I just noticed that was an equitable from the jump that a lot of our black-owned businesses get shut out of PPP loans. I had a good friend, he is a formerly incarcerated business owner, he, you know, started about five years in prison. And he is one of our premier business owners in the city. And he got the nod alone, because it was written into the code that formerly incarcerated folks did not receive p2p loans, which is just, you know, we’re continuing to punish people for things that admit mistakes that they made. And so it’s just, it’s just terrible. And I think we need to do a better job of building up our nonprofits making sure that we are in positions to be strong and sustainable, so that we can weather another crisis like this in the future. 

Standaert, 53:49 

Thank you. 

Briseno, 53:52

One thing that I learned the hard way is that this is a marathon, not a sprint. And I’m trying to keep that in mind as we’re going through the AARP funds and looking at allocations there. So really taking our time and being thoughtful about how we’re allocating, I think is important, important. And then I think Charlie is absolutely right, the, this pandemic really revealed how fragile our small business community, especially our businesses owned by people of color is. And so I really moving forward, we’re looking at how can we help build that resiliency, and so that you can succeed, one of the things that we saw, we have a legacy business program that we’re administering. And we’re learning that most of the recipients if not all, do not have a continuity plan in place. And that’s so key and so important. And so we’re working as part of there, in order to receive the funds, we’re working with them to build those plans, because we want to make sure that we see them in the long term, and survive as a business. 

Lucky, 55:00 

That’s great. I wanted to jump in, I think it definitely showed how friendly all small businesses are, and then also show the resilience of nonprofits, I think, you know, who’ve shown themselves to be stronger, and a vital part of the ecosystem of our country completely, even though they’ve been completely under invested in and oftentimes challenged to do the most work with the least amount of resources. So I, that’s definitely a learning for us. And I think when you look at who’s actually reaching individuals, and thinking of creative ways to make sure that we can tear down these walls to access the dollars that we’ve seen in the nonprofit community to step into that space. And I think equally so to be able to address it initially, right where we are to make sure folks can access dollars, then to be able to begin that policy and advocacy work, to go after the system to say we’re going to make this available to you on a reimbursable basis. That just, which was not mandated did not have to be done. So that says we’re going to exclude you without saying we’re going to exclude you. So that cannot happen in the morning. I think that’s a lot of where our efforts have to be to meet the now and then to also serve the future. 

Standaert, 56:12 

Well, I think I’m just thinking about all these comments, some things to, you know, very common themes, were talking about small businesses or local governments, you know, the reimbursement model, you know, that’s something that Treasury is in a position to address right now, as it’s finalizing regulations for how states will have to pass money on to non entitlement jurisdictions through the American rescue plan. So you know, make sure that it’s clear that in this next round, that states are not, you know, Treasury to provide that directive to not provide it on a reimbursement basis to local government. So that’s an opportunity right in front of us right now, on small businesses, for all of us and anyone listening, every state is getting money to the state small business credit initiative, $10 billion is coming down to states, your state right now is working on plans of how they’re going to get access to this money. This is a six-fold increase of this pot of money than when it previously existed. Just to get a sense of the scale in the deep south, it’s $308 million. That’s coming down. So these are all lessons learned from the PPP, terms of application requirements, business support, who’s eligible, working with trust organizations should be integrated now into this? billions of dollars that’s coming down through the state small business credit initiative. And so just, you know, I think lifting up what many common themes around the value of working with trusted partners and, you know, the tension of speed and a disaster, and pausing to make sure we get it right. And I think we’ll have that time in front of us with some of the funds coming down with the American rescue plan. And for people administrating funds that are not going out the door right now, hopefully, you’ll take these lessons now and start integrating them for whatever is coming next. So I really just appreciate everybody tuning in today and to Felicia, and to Charlene and Veronica for sharing the brilliant work that they have done over the last year in a really trying time. And hopefully, we’ll be able to carry that forward on a number of fronts. So thank you all. 

The COVID-19 pandemic had a devastating impact on small businesses, and disproportionately hurt minority-owned small businesses. The government provided aid in a variety of ways, including the creation of the Paycheck Protection Program and extending credit modifications, but there still remains a need for additional assistance and regulatory changes in order for businesses to weather this ongoing storm. Evidence of discrimination by financial institutions has been repeatedly found by NCRC’s small business mystery shopping tests, but there has been limited enforcement action implemented to ensure equal access to aid and additional credit products for small businesses. Stakeholders at all levels have a role to play in working towards solutions for businesses damaged by the economic downturn. Join us for a panel discussion with speakers from federal, state, academic and advocate organizations on the gaps in lending enforcement today and possible solutions to increase oversight of fair lending practices.

Speakers:

• Bradley Blower, General Counsel, NCRC
• Patrice Ficklin, Assistant Director-Fair Lending, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
• Edgar Gill, Senior Deputy Commissioner, CA Department of Financial Protection and Innovation
• Sterling Bone, Professor of Marketing and Strategy, Utah State University

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Blower 00:04 

I’d like to welcome everybody to our session on small business lending enforcement gaps and possible solutions. our panel today is going to discuss the, you know, the pandemic and the devastating impacts on small businesses, and what their thoughts are on what we can do to aid small businesses, not just during the pandemic, but afterwards to make sure that they’re sustainable and can thrive. And we’re gonna focus a bit as well on a series of NCRC studies that we conducted, along with several academics, including one of our panelists, showing bone that looked at the payment protection program that the government federal government launched during the pandemic to aid small businesses, and particularly with a focus on how the program worked in serving minority and women owned businesses. And what To what extent we saw any discrimination or discouragement that occurred during the second phase of the PPP program. We have a great panel today, we have three distinguished panelists, our first speaker is going to be Sterling Bone, who’s Professor of Marketing at Utah State University, and has been a partner with NCRC for the last several years working on looking at small business lending what small business lending needs are and what gaps there are in terms of services and credit availability. Our second speaker will be Ed Gill, who’s the Senior Deputy Commissioner at the California Department of Financial Protection and innovation, and prior to serving in that role, and had a long career in banking. Most recently, before he joined the CD, FBI, he was marketing president for US Bank in Northern California. And our final speaker is Patrice Ficklin, who is who was the initial and continuing fair lending director at the CFPB. Prior to her tenure at CFPB, Patrice was counsel at the civil rights law firm of Rome and Colfax, where I worked with her at the time. And prior to that she worked at Fannie Mae on a variety of issues, including affordable housing. So with that, we’ll kick it off and Sterling bone press, Brown is going to kind of set the table for us on what the NCRC and our academic partners found, when we did mystery shopping, and testing of the small business lending space during the payment Protection Program. Professor Bone? 

Bone 02:30 

Thank you, Brad. And thank you all for attending the session. I’m honored to be with these amazing panelists that are deep into the trenches of all things related to what I’m going to be sharing. And I get to take the vantage point of being that Professor in this session of coming at it from a very open and neutral perspective to understand the paycheck protection program. And I’m going to be highlighting the minority small business experience during their journey for small business. And this is, as Brad mentioned, it’s been a very fruitful and long partnership with the NCRC with our Academic Team. And we want to make note that, that this is a very much a team collaborative effort to understand the paycheck protection program as well as all things related to small business financing. Just to kind of give you kind of a kind of a visual perspective of the Small Business journey, the journey to small business. Lending is a choice journey. And that comprises of a number of sub choices, and that denial and discouragement can occur at any stage or sub choice at any stage of the journey. And that the you know that this dis denial or discouragement at individual points is tantamount to a overall loan denial or rejection. The small business loan choice journey has a myriad of choice options. is dependent in that experience at one stage or sub choice impacts the sub choices at another point in the journey. So, as we look here at the lender and product search stage of Enrique first time business loan seeker, that our research focuses on this, this this this lender and product search stage. And that unique to our research is that we investigate the sub choice level of this journey, and are interested in denial and discouragement of small business lending throughout the process of information search. And at the time that the small business owner is seeking actively loan options, and not just the resulting outcomes of whether a loan is approved, and what the loan terms and rates are. So as a backdrop to our research approach, we have a core set of research questions that we are attempting to address. And we’re trying to understand that that whether and how are similarly situated minority and non minority small business owners presented the same information, are they required to provide the same information and at what level do are they given the same level of encouragement and service quality? Over the last 10 years, as academics, we have been refining the process of match pair testing with our partners at the NCRC been trying to under we’ve been trying to understand match pair methodology and small business. For those that are not familiar with this method. This research approach has its origins in mystery shopping procedures, however, is much tighter in research design and includes much more rigorous experimental control. We’ve conducted match pair cast in person in the bank as well as over the phone with bank representatives. However, since the covid 19 pandemic, we have concentrated our phone testing on concentrating on phone testing and refining methodologies there. And this was especially timely given the rollout of the paycheck Protection Program or PPP funding. I will now present two match pairs study tests that were conducted during the phase two of the PPP rollout, the first being conducted in the Washington DC, Virginia MSA in April of 2020. And the second that was collected in Los Angeles in the latter stages of phase two in July and August of 2020. We followed up these match pair tests with a national survey of small business owners looking at their loan appetite alone demand as well as their loan modification behaviors. And I will share some of the insights from this survey around the PPP outcomes among small business owners in nine major markets. Again, for those that are not as familiar with match pair fair lending approaches this this representation or this slide kind of details kind of the design and the process by which we conduct these tests. So for the studies that I’m going to present, we recruited and matched testers on voice and I’ll mention briefly here in a moment about linguistic profiling. And it across these tests, we looked at three rates, the national origin groups being white, black and Hispanic as well as crossed both gender groups with test banks in major metropolitan statistical areas, and the typical sample size varies from 120 to 180, individual test parts, this gives us adequate power to be able to look at statistical differences among the different test groups. As individuals are testing in these banks, they are testing about a similar small business loan product. However importantly, on paper, those that are in protected groups both in race and national origin as well as gender are presenting information that is superior to to our control testers and that they’re more qualified than the control Chester’s. That’s the testers are extensively trained and steps are taken to make sure that they are following protocols of this testing procedure. And then immediately after each of the tests they provide information using online survey and other methods of data collection after the test has been completed, we are they also provide detailed narratives of the experiences that are analyzed in an qualitative approach of fair lending analysis to ensure that we are able to approximate the racial and national origin route categories as well as the gender group categories. We conduct extensive voice retests, in that we that in that the testers are given a nursery rhyme that they recite or that they read. And then that recording is then presented to a panel of adults that are able to assess, or categorize individuals based on what they perceive to be the race and national origin of the voice, as well as the gender, we take a very high level of agreement in terms of the voice test to determine who will be the testers for a given study. And, and so we use classification and cross tabulation tables to make sure that we’ve identified at a high level of reliability voices that are correctly classified into our test groups. I’m going to first take us through the results and some of the high level results of the Washington dc report. And I will mention that all of the data that we are presenting today have been published in NCRC, white papers and in certainly can be available, and they’ll be information of where you can access these reports in their entirety. In the Washington dc test, you can see here, we’ve got represented the four groups with different colors of bars in these in these graphs, I’m going to highlight some of the key findings from these studies. It’s important to note that as I go through these, these these data, that while it might appear at times that there are differences based on the bar graphs, we are undertaking a much more rigorous statistical test of each of these group comparisons to ensure that, that we are accounting for the real and represented differences that are in the marketplace. But first, I’m here in terms of information that was provided by the loan officer, we found that women received less information received less information than men about general loan information. So in our testing procedure, the testers go in asking for assistance or loans for their business, there’s not a specific request of a certain a specific type of loan. So just generally, given the time period, PPP was the Hallmark product that was, you know, most valuable for these small businesses during this time, but generally women received less information about the about loans in general as well as PPP. In general, you can see that as represented that over 56% of the time, both the white men and black men received information regarding PPP, and that it was far less for significantly less for women receiving information about PPP. Important to our researchers that we are interested in understanding discouragement and encouragement during these this stage of information search and loan search, or the Small Business operators. And so it’s imperative and important for these small business, small businesses to receive encouragement along this very complex and arduous journey. We found that in the volunteering of a qualifying statements, so in the case of bump bank officer, discusses with the tester, various options and programs that might they might be qualified for when if there was a mention of a qualifying statement, and it were an encouraging statement to apply. We capture it here. We found that protected groups in the in the form of both race and gender minority groups, that we found that black males, white females and black females were less likely to be volunteered and given a qualifying loan statement during April 2020, phase two of PPP. I’m now going to shift our attention to the latter stages of phase two to to look in a different marketplace, Los Angeles, and to understand the the behaviors and what was occurring in the field around PPP in the latter stages. In this test, we found that there was interesting patterns that were revealed through large statistical analysis across race and national origin as well as gender groups. Looking at these statistical significant findings, we find that among men, Hispanic men were less likely to be provided PPP information, it might be it might appear by from your eyeball that the black males received that information more than white males, but that effect was not significantly different. Rather that Hispanic men were the group that was much less likely to receive PPP information in Los Angeles area in In July, and August of 2020. Among the women, black females were likely to be black females were less likely to be provided PPP information during this time period, and that there was no significant difference between white and Hispanic women. Again, continuing our conversation around encouragement and discouragement, we’ve advanced our testing to include overt and very objective measures of discouragement that occurred during our testing, for example, being told to go to a competitor bank to hold to call back at another time, even blatantly be being pulled to not apply. We take an aggregate measure of seven of items similar to these and and and analyze and test the overall discouragement that individuals received in Los Angeles during this time period. And we found overall that black females and Hispanic females experienced more open and objective discouragement. Compared to white females, there were no significant differences in overall discouragement among our male testers. The follow up this match pair testing, we undertook a national survey to understand the appetite in terms of the demand for small business products during the pandemic, as well as the supply or the behaviors in the banking and market place that were, were encouraging or discouraging individual who apply or to pursue or PPP programs. The PPP program, this sample, this survey was conducted with 935 small business owners across nine major US metropolitan statistical areas. The representative groups in this population included 29%, being white 33%, being black, and 38%. Being Hispanic. The sample is predominantly men in terms of being 65%. But we have representation of female women owned businesses, as well and that there is representation of, of industry across the ni CF and a ICS codes. I’m going to highlight just a few of these findings from this study, we find that overall and what you’re seeing here is three stages of the journey. And consistent with what we’ve continued to to investigate is these these sub choices or these stages of the journey. So first being in inquiring about a PPP loan is in orange, it represented by the orange bars, the gray bars represent applied or you know, the those that applied for PPP loan. And among those that applied, the yellow are those that were approved for a PPP loan. I’m going to talk and discuss the findings based comparing against the gender groups. So the key findings for men, black men were more likely to enquire about a PPP loan. We also took measures of the pre pandemic debt loads, and we found that black men were carrying higher level of debt liability against their business. And a lot of that debt was credit card loan in its end and other consumer loans that were being used for the business. Important importantly, here, we find that the ratio between inquiring about a PP loan to applying for a PPP loan was the lowest among black men, meaning that there was a greater gap. And this did not come into any surprise to us that have been looking at the encouragement or discouragement of minority business along small business lending for a number of years. Overall, we find that hits men IQ men, in general general were less informed and were less successful in the PPP program. Looking at women we find two interesting findings and and interestingly, these findings in this trend holds for both black and Hispanic Hispanic women, we find that black and Hispanic women applied for PPP more often than white women, and that the ratio of the applied to being approved for the PPP program was the lowest among black and Hispanic women. And so while there was more that applied, in general, that applied for the PPP program in these groups, there were fewer that actually received or approved for that program. So in terms of recommendations from this research, we strongly advocate as an academic and in our partnership Academic Team as well as our team with NCRC. To implement section 1071. as researchers, it’s absolutely imperative that we have more transparency in terms of the data surrounding small business lending. And we encourage those that have standing within government and, and and other areas to to begin the enforcement and continue enforcement actions in the small business arena. As academic researchers, we continue to do work in this area and are employing a lot of statistical and economic econometric modeling procedures of these data to account for bank and individual employee characteristics. We call upon our industry and bank partners to perform self test audit, and to introduce protocols and procedures to optimize customer experience across all customer groups. Thank you for the time. 

Blower 19:59 

Thank you, Sterling. Well, now that we have a bit of a backdrop of what the NCRC and our academic partners found, in the PPP program, in terms of discouragement, particularly of women and minority businesses, we thought it was important to have regulator leaders on these issues, speak out to what their respective agencies are doing from a state and federal level. And so we’re gonna turn it over to Ed Gill, to talk about what the state of California is doing and what they’re focusing on when it comes to small business lending. 

Gill 20:34 

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. It’s nice to be a part of today’s panel. Let me just take a few minutes to talk about our department, including some of the major changes taking place under the new California consumer protection law. The Department of Financial Protection and innovation is charged with protecting consumers while fostering reasonable financial innovation. And I think the commitment to that balance is long overdue. We believe consumer protection and financial tech innovation are not mutually exclusive. And that best in class companies understand that truly innovative products and services go hand in hand with consumer protection principles. California has the largest or the I’m sorry, the fifth largest economy in the world. How we regulate credit unions, banks, payday lenders, student loan servicers and financial tech companies matters. It creates a level playing field that allowed people and markets to thrive. And the California consumer protection law cc FPL gives us more tools to do that job. The law took effect at the start of this year and allows us to the following regulate previously unregulated financial products and services protect consumers from predatory businesses without imposing undue burdens on honest and fair operators, and spur reasonable innovation and financial so in financial services by connecting us with entrepreneurs and innovators early on so we can have an early look and provide feedback. one specific enhancement in our ability to investigate and enforced against unfair deceptive and abusive products and x, or you dap. The new you dap authority simply allows us to better do our jobs. We have always been here doing the work where our hands were previously tight, we can now take action to ensure a fair and resilient marketplace. This revamped financial services regulatory agency is a model for other states. Our success will spur similar reforms in other states we believe it gives us the latitude to tackle scams that have cropped up during the covid 19 pandemic while also ensuring that fintechs have a regulatory framework that makes sense for their unique business styles. We’re also standing up a new Consumer Financial Protection Division to supervise previously unregulated financial services and a market analysis and research arm will keep us informed about potentially harmful consumer trends. Suzanne Martindale is our new Senior Deputy Commissioner for consumer financial protection, y’all. You may also know her from her work at Consumer Reports. She helps she helped to shape and pass the California financial protection law and has more than a decade of experience as a consumer advocate. Going back further, in 2018, California enacted sb 1235, which requires non bank lenders and other finance companies to provide written consumer style disclosures for certain commercial transactions, including small business loans and merchant cash advances. Sb 1235 requires that provider of commercial financing, make disclosures similar to those required by consumer finance laws, such as the federal Truth in Lending Act. The term providers excludes depository institutions like banks, but includes commercial lenders operating under the California financing law, or bank sponsorship arrangements, including many FinTech companies. Sb 1235, was an inset was enacted to ensure that companies can easily compare the costs and features of various forms of commercial financing, and make California the first state in the nation to adopt such requirements for commercial lending. The DEA FBI is currently well along in the process of adopting rules to enact the law. We have received and considered many public comments, and we expect to have final regulations ready for adoption later this year. This law was first in the nation to provide such protections to small business borrowers. New York has since also require greater transparency from non bank lenders making small business loans other states may follow. I see our challenge as challenges that other states will experience in the near future. And I see our solutions, and specifically the Department of Financial Protection innovation, as a preview of what we will see in other progressive states. Thank you. 

Blower 25:29 

Thank you. And now we’ll turn to the federal perspective from Patrice Ficklin, who, as Ray mentioned, has been a longtime leader. 

Ficklin 25:40 

Yes, thanks so much, Brad. And we do go way back, don’t we, as you mentioned in your introduction, thanks so much to you and to Allie and to Sarah and all the other great folks at the NCRC for inviting me to speak with you today on this very important topic. I’m absolutely thrilled to be here. And it’s been wonderful to hear about Sterling’s work and Ed’s work as well, so honored to be a part of this distinguished panel. As Brad mentioned, my name is Patrice Alexander Ficklin. And I have the honor of serving as the fair lending director at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or the CFPB. Sometimes the bureau as we refer to it, let me just note at the outset that I am a representative of the CFPB making this presentation on behalf of the Bureau. my remarks do not constitute legal interpretation, guidance or advice of the CFPB. As I noted in a blog post that I co authored at the beginning of the pandemic, small businesses including minority and women owned businesses are the cornerstone of the American economy. And I’ve been hit particularly hard during the covid 19 pandemic. There’s an old saying that when white communities get a cold, black and other communities of color get pneumonia. I’m not sure who said at first, but it’s an apt warning, especially in times of economic distress, where disproportionate impacts are often felt by minority communities. I’ll note that the Bureau has observed that minority entrepreneurs tend to operate in industries most affected by the pandemic and are dependent on in person contact, including restaurants, hospitality, barber shops and salons, which in many jurisdictions have been subject to lengthy closures. Because minority owned businesses are more likely to hire diverse employees, and are more likely to be located in minority communities. These adverse business impacts also tend to affect minority customers or consumers. Small businesses, especially minority owned ones typically have little savings to insulate themselves against lean times and business interruptions. Minority firms are often smaller and less likely to have multiple locations that can help reduce adverse outcomes should one location be incapacitated. Recent research from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York observed that the black community has been doubly harmed by the corona virus pandemic, first from the virus itself and secondly, from the harm inflicted on black owned businesses. The Fed bank found that activity among black small businesses fell more sharply than small businesses representing other populations between February at the onset of the pandemic February 2020, and the pandemics initial peak in April of 2020. The study found a positive correlation between the share of black owned businesses in a county and the number of infections occurring per 1000 residents. Specifically 40% of business receipts for black owned firms nationwide come from just 30 counties. And as of July of last year 19 of these counties had the highest number of Coronavirus cases in the country. Conversely, counties with higher proportions of white owned businesses had lower incidence of infection. The report concludes that areas with higher concentrations of black businesses are more likely to face more severe and lasting pandemic impacts. In more recent small business owners survey conducted by alignable Research Center found that 45% of small business firms are concerned about their firm’s survival. Their survey which was conducted last month of more than 5000 small business owners paints a worrisome picture 59% of minority owned 50% of female owned and 44% of veteran owned small businesses reported being highly concerned about their firm’s remaining solvent through the end of the second quarter of this year. The level of high concern is most pronounced in certain industries, beauty salons, barber shops, caterers, gyms, restaurants and bars and retailers. 41% of those surveyed say that they only have one month or less of cash reserves. And that’s an increase from the February survey were 32% reported having one month or less of cash reserves. 49% were unable to pay their market rent, and 74% reported significant problems in obtaining paycheck protection program funds, while only 26% reported that they were able to obtain their loans quickly and easily. Another recent survey reported the struggles of small businesses owned by women of color, caress and iPhone women of color reseach released research last month, reflecting that the pandemic worsened the gap for small businesses owned by women of color when compared with other firms. Nearly 70% saw revenue declines in 2020. And on average, those revenue declines were 46%. And most of them specifically 81% stated that they did not receive emergency government assistance to support their businesses with 49% relying on personal savings. And so having shared with you some of these worrisome statistics that the Bureau has gathered as part of our market monitoring function. Let me speak for a moment about the Bureau’s role. The CFPB is role in ensuring fair, equitable and non discriminatory access to credit for small businesses. One of the key anti discrimination laws that protects consumers and small businesses. In fact, businesses of any size is the equal credit Opportunity Act or the ecola as we refer to it, and its implementing regulation, known as regulation b ecoa, and regulation B prohibit lending discrimination on various prohibited bases, including race, color, religion, national origin, sex and sex includes sexual orientation and gender identity, marital status, and age, as well as whether or not the applicant receives public assistance. ECOWAS protection against lending discrimination covers any aspect of a credit transaction, and it prohibits the discouragement of prospective applicants. Most importantly, for purposes of this panel discussion, I’d like for you to know that he CO and regulation B prohibit discrimination in both consumer credit and as I said a moment ago, business credit, including loan programs, such as the Small Business administration’s paycheck protection program that we’ve talked about, particularly with regard to Sterling’s research together within CRC. discrimination under eco and regulation b can be proved using disparate treatment and disparate impact theories. It policy or practice even if it’s neutral on its face, that provides parental preferential treatment to certain applicants. over other similarly situated applicants can increase fair lending risk if it causes a disparate impact on a prohibited basis, consistent with our authority to ensure compliance with the equal credit Opportunity Act or COA, the Bureau has prioritized fair lending risks in small businesses, small business lending for a number of years now. Our small business fair lending work has focused on assessing whether there’s discrimination in the application, underwriting and pricing processes for small business loans. Whether creditors are engaging in redlining with regard to small business loans and file Whether there are weaknesses in fair lending related compliance management systems, again for small business lending programs, more recently is part of our supervisory response to the economic challenges created by the pandemic, we conducted prioritized assessments of the potential fair lending risks in lenders participation in the PPP program, as discussed in the CFPB recent addition of supervisory highlights in implementing the PPP, multiple lenders adopted a policy that restricted access to this loan program, beyond the eligibility requirements of the cares act, and the rules and orders issued by the Small Business Administration. And we would call that an overlay because that’s an additional eligibility requirement in addition to the legal requirements. Specifically, several small business lenders restricted access to PPP funds, by limiting eligibility to existing customers, what we call an existing customer overlay. The Bureau’s prioritized assessment work in this area revealed that these existing customer overlays fell into two general categories. First restrictive policies that allowed only small businesses with this pre existing relationship, or a certain type of pre existing relationship with the institution. The opportunity to apply for PPP alone, and less restrictive policies that required small businesses without a pre existing relationship, to first become a customer of the financial institution, usually by opening a business deposit account, and then they’d be allowed to apply for a PPP loan. What the CFPB determined is that an overlay, restricting access to PPP loans for small businesses that do not have an existing relationship with the lender, while neutral on its face, that policy may have a disproportionate negative impact on a prohibited basis, and run the risk of violating ecola and regulation B. Compared to white owned firms, black owned firms have disproportionately fewer relationships with a bank. As a result of these barriers, existing customer overlays, even if not overtly discriminatory, may have a disproportionate negative impact on a prohibited basis. Given the reported challenges that minority owned businesses have had in accessing PPP funds, the bureau encourages small business lenders to consider the fair lending risks associated with participation in the PPP, and in further implementation of the PPP, and really in any small business lending program to evaluate and address any fair lending risks. To mitigate fair lending risk, a first step is to assess the validity of the business need for loan eligibility policies. Even if a creditor determines that it has a legitimate business need for an existing customer overlay or any other eligibility policy, the lender should also consider whether there are alternatives that may be less discriminatory in their impact. In our prioritized assessments, we observed that some creditors permitted an applicant without a pre existing relationship, to first become a customer of the financial institution by opening up a business deposit account and then apply for PPP loan, or to do so simultaneously. a creditor may consider as part of its periodic monitoring whether its existing customer overlay is consistently applied to all applicants. overlay policies that vary by business unit or application channel, or that are administered on a discretionary or ad hoc basis may heighten concerns of illegal discrimination. As part of that evaluation, creditors should contempt consider examining their processes to identify instances where loan officers or other employees have significant discretion to prioritize otherwise make credit available to one applicant over another similarly qualified applicant, generally discretion in credit origination, including product selection, approvals, and pricing terms or servicing including modification or hardship requests may create heightened fair lending risks. The creditor may further mitigate for lending risk by examining whether its policies are consistently followed by staff and if exceptions are granted, ensuring those exceptions are justified by documenting and periodically monitoring the basis for any exceptions. Let me conclude by noting that I Again, I appreciate the opportunity to share comments about the work that we’re doing here at the CFPB. And I look forward to answering questions at the conclusion of the panel. Back to you, Brad. Thank you. 

Blower 39:12 

Thank you, Patrice. Before we turn it over to the conference participants who just had a couple of questions and wanted to ask the panelists, I mean, let’s start with you, Sterling. Given what you seen from the NCRC studies that we conducted with you and your peers in the academic community, particularly related to you know, African American business owners, having more debt coming in consumer debt coming into the process, and Hispanic, small business owners having less information, what do you see as the most pressing need for the small business owners, the minority and women owned businesses from your studies that you’ve conducted? 

Bone 39:53 

Yeah, Brad, I think it’s particularly concerning as we see just the, you know, simulate accumulation of, of disparate and treatment across the light the life cycle of these businesses, you know, access issues in terms of information are absolutely imperative. And I think it’s, we’ve kind of resolved at it, that the data and the implementation of 1071 is of utmost importance, because we don’t understand fully the landscape of what’s occurring in these situations for for small businesses, you knew what your highlight that, you know, there’s this pre this prior dead, as well as there is this, this difference of, you know, information gapping, provided, I think a lot of that is, you know, focused on, you know, getting more information to the marketplace so that the market can correct some of these activities, as well as preparing through I know, within the NCRC conference, there’s a number of individuals here that are in the trenches working with small businesses and in as in development centers and, and working with, you know, these these folks. And so providing the information, providing mentorship and education and outreach to these businesses is absolutely important. 

Blower 41:09 

Thanks. And and I wanted to ask you, it’s very important the rules, the role of the federal government plays, but the states have a key role here as well. And how do you see California and other states who are taking the lead on small business issues? What do you think that you can do in the short term to increase access to this information and credit that Sterling talked about? 

Gill 41:33 

Thanks, Brad. In reference to the information that Sterling shared with us, I think it’s it’s probably important to put it in perspective, from the standpoint of worse, where California sits at this point in time, for example, California continues to be the leader in operating, offering offering ppb loans through our institutions. As of December 31 2020. Our banking licensees have originally originated approximately 119,000 ppb loans for approximately $22.2 billion outstanding. I think when you look at the numbers of where Brad was going with the, I guess, the proportion of loans that are going to minorities and those of the non minority community, it’s it’s a lot to be determined in terms of where those funds are actually being spent. I think as we move forward, in so many ways that the Department of Financial Protection innovation will look to include in our exams, how those funds are being dispersed between those different communities, those different borrowers I should say, and I think and then at that point, we’ll probably have an opportunity to address more appropriately, how can we impact where those borrowers are coming from whose needs are being met things of that nature? I think as of right now, it’s pretty new for us from a regulatory standpoint, because we’re typically looking at the assets and balance the balance sheets for asset growth with our institutions, and not necessarily where they’re spending or whether they’re, you’re utilizing the the lending opportunities for minorities and non minority communities. 

Blower 43:24 

And Patrice a question for you as well. I mean, a lot of people are pointing to the FinTech or financial tech community as a possible fix for part of the problem of greater accessibility to digital services playing on your on your phone for credit. What I mean, what do you see in terms of the ability of the FinTech community to provide additional access for small businesses? Or do you have concerns about making sure that the FinTech community and the traditional banks have kind of an even playing field in terms of consumer protection and other overlays, we need to make sure that they’re doing the right thing for the Small Business borrowers. 

Ficklin 44:05 

Sure, sure. Thanks, Brad. So the, the CFPB actually takes in many ways, what one could call a charter neutral approach to the enforcement of the consumer protection laws under our jurisdiction. And so regardless of whether they are depositories or non depositories, we apply the standards set forth in those consumer protection laws in a consistent fashion when it comes to institutions that are under our supervisory and enforcement jurisdiction. And I think that, you know, with regard to thinking about the protections for small business owners, and specifically, specifically the color protections, I think it’s just important for all creditors, whether they’re online, or they’re fintechs, or they’re depositories of bricks and mortar, you know, whatever their constitution is, that they recognize that they have obligations under the equal credit Opportunity Act and regulation be to ensure fair and equitable and non discriminatory access to credit. And really availing themselves of the Bureau’s guidance, and some of the materials that we’ve issued around what the constituent elements are of strong compliance management systems, right. And so making sure that they’re monitoring, identifying and addressing fair lending compliance issues, regardless of you know, what their business structure might be, and so ensuring that they have, you know, an up to date for lending policy statement and regular training for their employees that are involved in their credit transactions, including their officers and, and board members, that they engage in ongoing monitoring for compliance with their policies and procedures that are intended to reduce fair lending risk that they regularly review those policies and, and ensure that they identify potential disparate impact. And some regular analyses, you know, depending on the size and complexity of the institution, they engage in the appropriate level of statistical analyses, empirical analyses, for potential disparities on a prohibited basis, in their pricing, underwriting and other activities, that they regularly assess how they market their own products, to whom are they marketing, those little products so that they’re not creating, you know, redlining risks, for example. And again, that their leadership their their officers and board of directors were appropriate, if they have a board of directors, but their leadership, their senior leadership is actively engaged in oversight of fair lending compliance. And so those same kind of nuts and bolts, best practices with regard to managing for lending risks apply, regardless of the the nature of the enterprise that’s engaging in lending.  

Blower 46:54 

Thank you. I’d like to thank our panelists. And at this point, we’ll turn it over to questions from the conference participants. Thank you. Okay, now the fun begins, we’ll bring in our speakers again, a few weeks after we taped that portion of the panel was fun to watch ourselves on tape. And remind that mind ourselves what we said, I’m going to pick up countries with you. You talked about things that the bureau can do. And I guess I’m going to touch upon the sir, is there additional guidance for bureaus thinking about taking to help a business of getting access to credit score?

Ficklin 47:43 

Absolutely. One of the measures that we are taking and this actually applies in terms of both consumer credit and small business credit, particularly focusing on underserved communities, is making sure that lenders are aware of the opportunities to create special purpose credit programs. Special Purpose credit programs are authorized by a provision of the ecoa equal credit Opportunity Act, as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, and it’s implementing regulation, regulation B. And the special purpose Credit Program authority actually allows for profit and not for profit lenders to actually create programs that benefit disadvantaged borrowers and can actually advance one of the Bureau’s priority goals, which is around advancing racial equity. And in order to assist creditors in better understanding special purpose credit programs, you know, in the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd and all of this social unrest and protests that follow Black Lives Matter and other protests last summer, lenders expressed much more interest in these programs and asked us for additional guidance and So we issued a blog post last summer talking about special purpose credit programs. And then also an interpretive rule that was styled as an advisory opinion and released last December. And and just by way of background, I just wanted to talk for a moment about kind of what the special purpose Credit Program authority would allow, and does allow for profit institutions to do to create special lending programs. And we we’ve frequently seen these types of programs in the small business lending space. And basically, what a lender has to do is establish pursuant to a written plan, a lending program that is designed to meet the needs of a class of persons that is basically disadvantaged, in other words, who would not normally receive credit, under the lenders customary standards of credit worthiness, or would receive it on less favorable terms. And so regulation B actually allows institutions to create these types of targeted lending programs that can address a needs in the communities that they serve, the standards for not for profits are actually less stringent. They do not have to actually create the written plan that for profit lenders have to create. But they too can also create a lending program that is targeted for the benefit of economically disadvantaged persons. And so we’re hopeful that the materials that we’ve issued will actually encouraged lenders to provide more of these types of programs to assist small businesses, and also hopefully facilitate an equitable recovery from the current recession. Thanks.

Blower 50:44 

Sure, and I, you know, I would add as an incentive, that not only has the bureau provided great guidance on this, and Patrice has added to that a bit. But also that you can get CRA credit for doing these kinds of things, not just in the small business space, but in the in the housing space in other areas. So easterly, I wanted to ask you, what’s next in the research? What, what what what do we need? We talked about discouragement, and the early phases of pre application, what else do we need to look at? Where are their data gaps in terms of distribution of loans that actually came out of the PPP program? Maybe you can tease a little bit about a study that we’re working with you on involving socio economic status. Can you touch on those points?  

Bone 51:27 

No, absolutely. And, I appreciate the comment by Jake raised up in the chat. You know, I think there is this question of how are funds being distributed. And a lot of that gets at the the question of the outcome of loan approval or denial. And again, one of the things that we try to do is really characterize the entirety of that experience of that journey in that pre application study. And so so I would encourage I put up some reasonable put up some resources in chat about some reports that are that are available. Regarding the general distribution of PPP, some of the things that Brad you can kind of get to is, is we recognize that there’s a complexity of factors that go into how funds are being distributed. And one of the things that we’re looking at is the socio economic status or the perceived education level of applicants, they come into loans. And what we’re finding is that in the early conversations that individuals are having with banks, and this was done over foam testing procedures, as I’ve highlighted in our research, that there is a there is a kind of a dismissal that’s happening for individuals that are perceived to be lower socioeconomic status. What’s interesting is when we do these tests, those that have lower socio economic factors, or status levels are actually some of the most credit worthy applicants based on their financials. And so they’re not even getting into those conversations. And so when we look at the entirety of the experience, it’s important that the data gaps, continue to understand that we hope that implementation of 1071 occurs in the future. But it’s important that we continue to look at the entire human journey and not just the outcomes.  

Blower 53:10 

So it’s your turn to chime in here. Now, the states often ask act as crucibles for interesting experiments, forcement, programs, opportunities, incentives. And after all, innovation is in the title of your agency. What kind of innovations and interesting ideas is the California Department thinking about in taking the lead here and being kind of a leader and experimenting with what can be done to help businesses particularly during the pandemic? 

Gill 53:39 

Great, right, I really appreciate that question. You’re right, innovation is in the name. So we really have to make it bring it to fruition at this point in time. And I think where we are is, in the beginning stages. We don’t we don’t currently have a regulatory scheme on the small business side to see how our banks are are reacting and participating in the lending process. However, we’ve just started a program where we reached out to our institutions and did a survey on how they’re impacting their customer base and their hiring base from a DNI survey perspective, are they active in the community. And by and large, I think most of the larger commercial banks in California have a have a plan where they are participating and communicating within the communities that they reside. So we’re hoping that some of the smaller institutions or state chartered institutions will take that lead and follow. However, you know, I think it’s a responsibility of theirs as well to step up and make sure they’re doing the right thing, as Sterling pointed out in a number of the other stats that he talked about the ability of some of those borrowers in those communities, their ability to repay debt, their willingness to repay debt and the need for them to rely on being sponsored debt. It’s, it’s what is what really drives the economy. And and people often talk about California is the fifth largest economy in the world. Well, a ton of that is made up by small businesses. And so how do we make sure that those small businesses are thriving across the board. And I think one of the ways that we try are trying to do that is to actively engage our institutions in terms of their responsibilities from a lending perspective. And the survey is just the beginning, we just recently got the results of that, we had about 35% participation from our institutions. And that’s unacceptable at this point in time, we expect to see more so as we revive that survey, and I’m hoping to work with Sterling on some of the practices that they use, from a survey perspective and partner with California to actually get that type of information out to our institutions, and then back to us from for an analysis standpoint. So again, early stages of review of how can we be more proactive in analyzing what our lenders are doing at this point in time? So that’s where we are. 

Blower 56:13 

Thanks, Ed. I guess a question for all of you. You know, when I talk to people offline at banks, on the small business side, they all acknowledge things could have gone a little bit more smoothly with the PPP program. But you know, everybody was well intentioned, and trying to do the right thing here. What can the banks do? What What can What do you see as some next steps that industry should take in terms of testing, training, providing grant programs subsidizing doing SP CPS? What do you think are the priorities for industry right now it’s really lean in because I think there’s a, there’s a goodwill there, especially during this pandemic, too. And what’s happened with the racial divide awareness in the last year that industries is a little more aware that they have a big role here to play. 

Bone 57:02 

If I could chime in there, Brad, I think that one of the things that we’ve seen is, as we’ve documented these experiences, is that a lot of banks, a lot of bank employees are acting and kind of their individual preferences. And the economists refer to this as taste based discrimination that they have maybe a preference for certain type of applicants. And we would like to see more uniform protocols and procedures taken by banks. I don’t think it’s too far fetched to think that these banks are capturing information in the customer relationship management database, maybe the loan officer, the employee is able to follow protocols that feed that information into the bank. So they can see that they’re being uniform. And I think this harkens to self testing, right. And one of the things that we’re hoping with our partnership with with NCRC is to partner with banks, as well, to do some testing to bring that information to light. I know that the you know, the regulatory enforcement is really appreciate them being sir, taking those self testing procedures, and really learning and improving their practices. And so those are a couple ideas that we’re trying to urge banks to engage with us on is to to engage in self testing, and then to consider maybe some more uniform protocols of what information is being asked and how it’s being asked uniformly across their prospective customers. 

 Blower 58:32 

Patrice, anything you’d like to add about the role of industry here. 

Ficklin 58:36 

Absolutely. Thanks, Brad. I choose two thoughts. The first is to take a very close look at your policies and procedures, and ensure that you don’t have other types of openings, credit overlays in your programs that really can’t be justified and that may in fact have an adverse impact on a prohibited basis. I think that in the small business lending segments of lender shops, there’s often been very little focus on consumer protections, types of concerns. And so I think that that many institutions haven’t yet brought their fair lending compliance lens to bear commercial lending side of the house. And so really taking the time to look at those policies and ask, are they in fact, justified? And in in even if they’re, there’s a legitimate business need for them, to go further and ask, Is there a less discriminatory alternative? I think the second thought, and this goes to a question in the chat where a member of the audience asked what can we do to avoid the types of practices that were unearthed in the NCRC, and research that Professor bone talked about during his presentation? And I do think that the diversity, equity and inclusion efforts that Ed spoke about a quite important, you know, I think those who have followed the Bureau’s redlining work know that one of the things we look at is the demographics, the diversity of loan officers, right? And so, you know, hiring a diverse team of people to engage training, the question in the chat asked about training, training on things like microaggressions. And unconscious bias, are also important tools that lenders can use, I never get in some of the early matched pair testing that NCRC and Professor bone did. That was in person testing, you will have a whole catalogue of micro aggressions to in terms of did the loan officer, look the prospective customer and was a tester in the eye? Did they invite them to sit down? Did they really, you know, make them feel welcome. And so those types of of, of micro aggressions are actually quite important in terms of complying with ECOWAS prohibition against discouraging prospective applicants. So I would no doubt commend to industry, those two areas, is areas of focus. Thanks.  

Blower 1:01:05 

So I’m gonna give you the last word to ensure anything you’d like to add to the debate or discussion.  

Gill 1:01:11 

Or Brad, I don’t think there’s much more I can add to what Sterling and Patrice had mentioned. However, I would want to just emphasize that that having had a career as a banker, and started my career as a small business banker, what what you were hearing today is real, those those biases do exist in the industry? I’ll be there have been a ton of changes in the industry in the banking industry over the last 2530 years, but not enough. And I think there needs to be a real in depth look, by the lenders, at their practices, their policies, and how can they engage the minority community a little better, I still don’t think they’re at a point where we’re on equal footing. And until we are and if that ever happens, there’s always going to be a need to improve in that area. So the effectiveness of conferences such as this, and the words that we heard from Sterling and portrays, are very apropos for what we need today. 

Blower 1:02:09 

Well, thank you all it’s been it’s been really enjoyable to do the panel with you. Let’s meet again next year, this time in person and see where things stand with small business lending again, in 2022. So thanks, everybody for your time. Appreciate it, the comments. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you. 

The country is undergoing a demographic shift that the financial services industry has yet to catch. Prospective clients for financial services products are increasingly young and people of color and yet, the institutions who serve them largely skew older, male and White. This session explores why siloed D&I initiatives fall short and how an organization can build the cultural competencies needed to serve burgeoning communities of color.

Speakers:

• Marisa Calderon, Chief of Community Finance and Mobility and Executive director of CFI at NCRC
• Stacie de Armas, SVP of Diverse Consumer Audience Insights, DEI Commercial Initiatives
• Mike Valdes-Fauli, President and CEO of Pinta
• Maria Vergara, Director Community Lending at Fannie Mae

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity.

Calderon, 00:00 

Welcome everyone, thank you for joining us today for our session on building cultural competencies in financial services. I’m Marisa Caldron. I am Chief of Community Finance and Mobility at NCRC and also executive director of our CDFI. And with me today I have Stacie de Armas. She is SVP of diverse consumer insights and initiatives for the DENI practice at Nielsen. She’s been recognized also by Latina-style magazine as a top Latina executive and three years in a row recognized as one of the foundations most powerful and influential Latinos in entertainment. So welcome Stacie. And with me also is Maria Vergara. She’s currently Director of Community lending at Fannie Mae. Previously, she served as president of Narp consulting services also, which we’ll hear more about in a little bit. Maria has also been recognized as a 2020 Keystone Award finalist by M Report. Welcome Maria. And finally, Mike Valdes-Fauli. Mike is president and CEO of Pinta. It’s one of the largest growing agencies in the country, for clients include recognizable names like Comcast, Heineken, Microsoft, the NFL, Realogy, and T Mobile. And Mike is also an accomplished writer who has been featured in publications that you’ll all recognize, like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, CNN, and the Miami Herald, just to name a few outlets. so delighted to have you all here today and appreciate your contributions. So just to set a little bit of framework for what we’re going to be talking about. The US has been undergoing a demographic shift for quite some time now, driven largely by communities of color. Latinos, have been widely recognized as the fast native-born demographic, over 60 million Latinos in the country, more than 18% of the country’s population. The back black population is also large and growing 46 point 8,000,013% of the country’s population. So really, we’re talking about over a third of the country’s current population. And, you know, this segment is what’s driving a lot of native-born growth in the United States. So what I’d love to be able to start just to level set on what it means to be culturally competent. So Maria, you started an agency that was really directed toward financial services, and I know a lot of the work that you did there was around cultural competency. So I’d love if you can maybe start us off with just giving us a little bit of context for what it means to be culturally competent in outreach. 

Vergara, 02:46 

Sure. And again, if you have any cultural competency, the way that I would define it is really the ability to connect with someone who is not from your native culture. I don’t believe that you need to be from that particular culture, but you have to have an affinity to the experiences. And, of course, if you’re from that segment, that would come more naturally. But I wanted to say that first because I think that the thought that you have to be of that particular culture or segment makes people either afraid, or maybe as an excuse or a crutch not to broach the topic, because because of that fear or insecurity, you just have to have a curious mind, be open, and, and connect with people on a genuine level. Okay, great. 

Calderon, 03:43 

Okay, great. Thank you. So Stacie, I know that there’s that you’ve done a lot of analysis and kind of looking at data with respect to different population segments. I wonder if you could, from your perspective at Nielsen, if you have any thoughts on cultural competency, and how that plays a role in markers outreach? Next, Mike? 

Armas, 04:11 

Sure. Thank you so much, and thank you for the invitation to be here. And welcome everyone who’s watching live, you know, as Maria suggests that I think there’s some, you know, prior behaviors or, or thoughts that were pretty common, where they would think, well, let’s just ensure that we have, you know, someone in the room to, you know, to dialogue about the community or represent the community. But most certainly, when you do real academic, you know, research on different community groups, you come to realize what cultural competency really should look like, based on how the community is today. And there are so many varying factors, right? I mean, a lot of these I think, are low hanging fruit, certainly, anyone in this space, who’s in marketing, or who has been, you know, for the last 10 or so years would know, things, of course, like geography and then and the different groups within just for example, the monolith of Latino right, we saw actually a lot of evidence of how different people are, culturally, even within the same group of Latinos, we saw that during the election, right post-election, we can very clearly see how our own community had very different reactions and feelings as a result of perhaps their home countries, or the experiences that they had had in their migration to the United States or their cultural history. So if you think about developing cultural competencies as a brand, when you’re speaking out to communities and wanting to have relevant touch points for me, and of course, this is with my researcher hat, having a really distinct understanding not just the group, but really the different cuts within any group. And dynamically looking through a cultural lens of these communities, certainly, in the long run, allows you to have a better, you know, ROI with any community group. And I know that that’s not our goal here today, right? We’re not just talking about how do we move products, what we’re talking about is touch points, we’re talking about relevancy we’re talking about resonating. But you can’t do any of those unless you have a real understanding of culture. And you can’t really have a good understanding of culture, unless you have folks that are in the room that have done the right research and have the best understandings of how your brand or your products or really serve the community in the way that they are asking to be served. 

Calderon, 06:32 

And Mike based on a lot of the experience that you have at being fat. How does this play into both your own approach as well as some of the advice that you give to your clients? 

Valdes-Fauli, 06:43 

Yeah, thank you. So first of all, I completely concur with my co-panelists on some of their commentary. For us, it’s important to have nuance and respect. So rather than sort of lead with the stereotype, we try to look for an insight that is organic, authentic to the marketplace. One of the places that starts and Stacey alluded to this is that it’s not one homogenous Hispanic market. It’s a series of sub-segments, you know, from country of origin to length, language dominance to acculturation levels, whether you’re first second or third generation. And so any product or service that has tried to kind of reach that audience needs to start from a place of saying, Wow, I really need to do my homework. And the more homework you do, the more ROI you will get, as well as kind of raising the service that we’re giving to the community that so desperately needs it. I just want to touch on one other thing from Stacy’s remarks. I agree with you. It’s not all about Moving product. But I’m always thrilled when there’s shared value, right. So when it’s not just a box to check for diversity, or a check that you’re blowing up in a photo op, and then you go back to making money, if you can somehow combine the two, that’s a win win win. That’s where one plus one can equal three, because it becomes more sustainable for a company to continue giving back to the Latino community if they’re also getting something tangible, in return. And I think long ago, there was some embarrassment, it was like a dirty word to try to segment and also benefit from that. But I think as long as it’s good, as I said, with respect, with insights and not stereotypes, it can be a win win. 

Armas, 8:16 

And if I can just add to what you said, Mike, you exactly nailed it on the head. Because when I think about, you know what you just said, like one plus one is three, if you’re doing this right, and you’re having the right investment in the community, your yield is going to be greater. I mean, there’s there’s a lot of research already out there that talks about $1, well invested in the Latino community and what your yield is, right? If that index is higher, because you’re reaching the community with relevancy, culturally competent, and you’re, you’re you know, you’re reaching the community in the right way with the right message, your yield will be better than you can see, traditionally speaking, in general market communities. So one plus one really does equal three, which that’s the incentive, that’s the mutual component, you’re talking about the incentive to do is do it right is it is going to yield better results. And again, not that it’s all about that, but you’re super-serving the community, the right topics in the right way with the right product, they’re receiving and responding to that in a way that gives you one to two times index over what you can do with a traditional dollar spent in a nonethic.

Valdes-Fauli, 9:18 

And the research actually bears that out for two big reasons. It’s, it’s cheaper, frankly, if you’re going to spend money through the chief marketing officer, and you’re looking at how you divide your, your limited budget, it’s often the lower cost of entry to market to the Hispanic. And statistically, we are more brand loyal if we feel like you’ve done a good job of engaging us with respect. So if it’s lower cost and a higher stickiness with the consumer in terms of brand loyalty, that’s a recipe for success. 

Vergara, 9:44 

And more socially networked, I would add as well, right? So we tend to have stronger social networks, and even living situations are generally, you know, more multi-generational or multifamily. So when we have a great experience, or the exponential voice that we have, is there. 

Armas, 10:06

Yeah. And the research proves that out to, you know, and that and I think it’s interesting, if you really look, we did some socio-economic research on that a few years ago, where I shouldn’t call us economics and social science research a few years ago to try and understand like, why this sort of word of mouth because we all know it, right? We know Latinos are more social online, we know, there’s a lot more dialoguing and sharing of best practices and behaviors and but we want to understand well, why is that? Why would this one community and we see it another epic communities as well, but why would it be like, why is there so much more, you know, social yelping, if you will. And then Then there is another, we really wanted to sort of crack that open. And rather than taking you through the whole white paper, the high points are that it’s really a function of how the Latino community grew up in the United States, our experience in the US, and I think, you know, my family, think of any of us who are, if you’re first-generation or second, you think back to how your family sort of came up the structures that were in place to some support, minorities, or even, you know, English second language communities, or like nonexistent in the 60s and the 50s. They were just sort of on your own right. And so as a result of that, the community banded together and began to share and network, how do we get you know, what does the education services look like? What a financial services look like, which is why, you know, I’m so glad we’re having this conversation. How do you buy a home? How does this work, and the community recognized early on that the best resource was there not because we didn’t dress outside resources, they’re just really weren’t any. So as a result, there’s this really we see it also with the African American community for different reasons. But this close knit this is a function of how the community has grown and, you know, was planted and grown in the United States sort of on its own and resourcing within each other, that has now become a massive networking resource and opportunity for brands if you can get in there in the right way, you know, the Latino community will socialize your message. But I think what’s interesting is to understand sort of why that came to be 

Vergara, 12:07 

Objective to the word of caution though, because we saw this in the recession. So after the recession in the mid-2000s, we got out of the housing crash, and we saw that communities of color, especially Latino and the African American segment by segment saw a tremendous loss of wealth. And what came out of that from many had the mistaken thought Look, you know, these folks were risky. They’re riskier than the general market, when in fact, it was because segments like the Hispanic segment went next segment, believed so much in believes so much in homeownership, that that’s where all of their investment went versus like a 401k, or some other diversified plans. And so it’s actually the belief in homeownership that led to those, you know, unfortunately, that that downward spiral of, of net wealth, and I and I worry also next year, too, when people are looking at their spend if they see a downward turn, but that’s because a COVID. And what happened because a COVID was was exasperated in minority silence, because of what we’re talking about, kind of that close-knit those networks and the extended families together. So I just a word of caution, because you have to understand those numbers and the dynamics, and how that might impact. And what you see at the surface may not necessarily tell the whole story. 

Calderon, 13:51 

Yeah. And Stacy, you mentioned, you know, some of that sort of social networking and how that came to be for the Latino community. And you alluded to that there are some similarities, but for different reasons for the black community, we could just talk a little bit about that, because these are, these are two important segments, but for different reasons within the US in terms of future growth potential, and within financial services, and the sort of positive effect that it can have on household wealth, which Maria just mentioned. 

Armas, 14:22 

So for the black community, it’s actually the root reason is similar, which is trust, right? But the circumstances surrounding the need to pull in around trust are different. So for the Latino community, it was lack of resources, it was lack of access, there were language barriers, there were other reasons that brought the community in and develop these really interesting networks. And if you, we’ve looked at these sort of networking maps, and how information is transferred, like all of this really cool, narrow data. And it’s really interesting how that, you know, almost the best information. It’s not like a game of telephone, it’s like the best possible game where the best information is what’s transferring and being used. And we’re actually subsequently growing more businesses that serve Latinos in that space, because they are super-serving in the black community. For as I said, the root reason similar was trust to the community had, understandingly, a and still the understandingly a, you know, some trust barriers outside of the black community. And so those same networks pulled together and you know, resourced around, you know, based on trust, who do we trust, that can share information that can we can leverage we can learn, we can grow, we can figure out how do we start a business? How do we educate our kids? How do we understand the financial system? How can we use it to our advantage under with our, you know, particular circumstances, so it was really trust that brought it all in still really digitally savvy among the top with the Latino community and the Asian community, we see it a lot with minority communities. And I would say, we’re not talking specifically around it today, but for the Asian community very similarly, around language and trust and really wanting to resource from the community’s best experiences. So that’s what we’ve seen in our like, neuro social networking research, which is was really cool, I love at the end of it, what you get out of it, oh, is it’s you know, it’s community. And it’s, and we’re coming together for community, which sounds like a, you know, one bullet point out of a big piece of research. But understanding all of those pathways really helps us understand why today, we say off the cuff, you know, Latinos use social network networking more and, and word of mouth is very, you know, prolific. But we want to understand why it’s, it’s because of the, you know, the way the communities have arisen in the States and the lack of structure and support earlier on. 

Calderon, 16:48 

That’s great. Thanks. And I mean, so I’m curious, you know, some might say, if we’re talking, you know, if we’re talking exclusively about the black and Latino communities, and the need for, you know, more culturally competent outreach, like, what’s all the fuss about? Because this is really only 31% of the population. Why is this such a big deal? So, like, how would you respond to that, Mike? Sure. Sure. 

Valdes-Fauli, 17:12 

Sure. Sure, I’d have a strong response in my guess. But yeah, look, how can let’s just take the Latino alone, which I agree, if you added up to 31%, my points are even greater, but we are almost, you know, we’re just over 80% of the population. So how can you ignore 1/5 of the most powerful economy in the world, just us Hispanic is bigger than all of Colombia, all of Argentina, all of Spain. It’s the second-largest Spanish-speaking country in the world. Similarly, the economy, the GDP of us Hispanic would be the eighth-largest country in the world, it would be like saying, we’re gonna ignore Brazil, which is number nine, by the way. So you know, it’s quite remarkable if a company thinks that they can, you know, sort of avoid this. And that goes, for every company, it used to be that Procter and Gamble and McDonald’s, and Coca Cola got it, but maybe not financial services. Again, one in five of America will need any product or service. And I think companies are thankfully starting to get it. You know, hiring hopefully, some experts like some of those on this call, hiring internal sort of Centers of Excellence to help guide their approach with that nuance I was talking about, and giving back to the community, again, in ways of shared value you saw, you know, just this week, sort of coalition of banks announcing that for black and brown audiences, for communities of color, they’re going to be rolling out a lot of options, even for those that are unbanked you can open a credit card without checking your credit. They’re getting creative in ways to not only help themselves, but hopefully rise the community up along with them. 

Vergara, 18:44 

I’d add to aside from what Mike just pointed out in the numbers that the demographics the meaning behind it, in our industry, in mortgages and housing. This is where the growth is coming from. There’s a recent, I believe it was the Harvard center for joint housing studies. And the minority segments are the only segments that are growing in particular Latino segment is propelling and driving the household formation while the white market actually is going down. So this is where the consumers are. So you know, yeah, I would, it’s just mind-boggling. Any company that wouldn’t put resources towards it. But we have to be very intentional there. Because there’s like, less than believe it was 13% of the housing industry is diverse. And so that’s a huge gap between the future of that household formations and who’s actually serving those potential customers. 

Armas, 19:59 

Yeah, and I, I’m sorry, please go ahead. Yeah, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, you know, I don’t think too, that it’s, or I think it’s important to understand I don’t think that they’re necessarily ignoring or not wanting to invest in this segment. I think they just don’t know how, you know, because when we talk about the Latino community, we’re talking about a large community. But the truth is, as you know, Mike, and both you real brought up, there are segments within this community that need our attention in different ways, via different platforms, right. I mean, when you’re thinking of older Latinos, 55 Plus, I think there, there’s such a need to really understand the community in a way that the brands that are currently working to do this in financial services, or otherwise, can’t quite get their heads around how to do this, you know, as an example, when we think of Latinos 55 Plus, one of the examples I used to make, and it still rings true, is that Latinos, 55 plus are nothing like non-Hispanic white 55 Plus, complete polar opposites, right? If you’re a Latino 55 Plus, your kids are gone, and they’re in college, like they’re out of the home. But generally speaking, when you look at the data, if you’re white, non-Hispanic, and you’re 55, plus, your kids probably may even be in high school, still at your home, you know, your experience is totally different. But what that means for Financial Services is you have this availability of, of income that is not available in the same way in white non-Hispanic households, right, you have these lifestyle curves that come at different points, that also means that home purchases come at different points, because family home formation, as you talked about, come at different points. And sometimes it’s reverse of traditional. So sometimes you’ll first see, you’ll see, you know, children, then maybe marriage, then education, then home purchase the orders could be all different, but really needing to understand those segments. And so that’s why I feel like a lot of the investment isn’t being made, I feel like the story is there that there is value, and, and, and a great return on investment. But it’s a lack of understanding of the nuances of the community that are what are holding brands back which product at which life stage, you know, how are we going to organize that and then which medium is it, you know, is are we going to think about you know, to all digital placement and think about who our ad servers are serving to for 55 Plus, versus that, you know, a different type of placement for our younger adults that have different financial needs. Everyone’s talking about wealth building. I feel like the marketplace is confused which is why you really need an organized agency who is thoughtful and very well versed in bringing forward all of these strategies 

Calderon, 22:43 

Yeah that now I mean, I hear you both talk me about data and just building off of what Maria said. Urban Institute released a study that just noted that between 2020 and 2040 70% of all homeownership growth is going to come from the Latino community. So we’re talking about, to Mike’s point, a segment of the population is just 18% of the population driving the lion’s share of homeownership growth in the country for the foreseeable future. And, you know, certainly most efforts that we’ve seen in the financial services segment are, I would say, superficial at best in terms of how to reach out to this population. And they tend to involve translating a website into Spanish, or, you know, doing something for Cinco de Mayo. And, no, you know, why I think that’s your point, Stacy, that probably comes from a place of lack of information or know-how, I wonder what advice we can give to companies that really want to line up, you know, meeting their corporate values, which are, you know, well-intended values with the market opportunity in that way. So, Mike, I wonder if you can share a little bit about like, how can companies do that correctly?  

Valdes-Fauli, 24:04 

Sure. And thankfully, we’ve had a lot of experience in this space, as you know, we’re working with Realogy. But also with envoy mortgage, so kind of on both sides of that equation, we’re helping them target Latino audiences. And you know, I think a lot of the same kind of trends and rules apply that you want to do your homework and communicate with good intent and respect. But some unique ones due to a lot of companies are fearful that if they get the message in the marketing, right, but their infrastructure isn’t ready, is that going to be an unfair dynamic, so you get the inbound interest. But if you don’t have a call center, a Spanish language website, or trained, you know, real estate professionals that are able to communicate in Spanish, are you doing a disservice to the market? My opinion is, you know, in the United States, in particular, almost any acculturation level has learned to navigate on some way in English. So you can’t open a bank account in Spanish, you cannot go into a Bank of America, even in East Los Angeles, or Chicago or in you, at some point, you got to fill out paperwork in English in this country. And maybe it’s your son or the neighbor or someone that helps you. But I still believe that engaging them in an emotionally resonant way that respects their unique values and culture, and communicating. And here’s a big important part, communicating candidly that they may need some English language support along the way I have, you know, all the faith in the world that that’s an ethical approach, that it in fact, is complimentary of the Hispanic community. And it’s a way to at least dip your toe before you start to revamp your entire infrastructure. 

Vergara, 25:25 

I couldn’t agree more with what Mike just said, and I think that a lot of the folks that are on this call listening to us, especially those in lending, mortgage lending, will say, well, there’s something called the DEP, the uniform, deceptive, something practices, basically, what I’ve heard a lot of lenders say, their worry is that if they do something or start something in language, then per that regulation, everything they’re they’re in has to fall in that language, and they’re not prepared to do so. And what Mike just said, he don’t have to do that. Don’t let that prevent you from dipping your toe in the water, you can do things that are in English, that are culturally very attuned, and are speaking without using a word of Spanish to the Latino market. An example of how that’s possible is kind of just the lens that you look at things through. So in the American culture, we often say what’s good for me is therefore good for my family. And that’s, that’s wonderful. Nothing is wrong with that. That difference in the different lens with the Latino segment, is what’s good for my family is then good for me. And so a very subtle change. It’s still the same, right? It’s still kind of means the same, but how you’re communicating that sentiment is different with that different point of view.

Armas, 27:08 

 Absolutely, and that’s ,you know, collectivist culture nature of it, which is interesting, right? People often think about, well over time, collectivist cultures are you know, the longer that you’re here in the US that’s sort of going to dissipate. But the reason it doesn’t is the reason I shared earlier, which was the really tightness of the community as a result of the community’s growth in the United States. So that really keeps this collectivist Culture Center whereas you said, what’s good for you know, my family is good for me. It’s really more about the community and those sorts of nuances in in things like just creative treatments, you know, and I know Mike can probably speak to this a lot better than I could, but there’s nuances and I’m not talking about, you know, we’ve all seen the work that’s been done by some amazing brands, during for example, like Halloween and there’s the, you know, a friend that kind of like in the corner, you’re like, Oh, look, there’s a Latino touch over there. Like I’m feeling good. It’s not that kind of nuance. I’m not talking about sort of that. And that is, by the way, a grayed out if English when I’m talking about loved seeing it. But then again, that’s also not across all cultures. I’m Cuban. And so that’s, you know, it’s a little different. But there are other nuances that are shared across all of the countries of origin, such as, you know, this sense of family. And I think we say that kind of off the cuff, and everyone thinks they know it. But that kind of nuance coming through and creative really does take an experts and an expert understanding of the community to… 

Calderon, 28:39 

Yeah, Mike, I really want to jump in there a little bit. 

Valdes-Fauli, 28:42 

No, I mean, I think there’s definitely a creative. You know, part of the challenge and if you’re in an ad agency is if you’re just targeting angles, you need to do two really hard things, you need to do extremely creative, kind of innovative out of the box work. And it needs to move product and actually work from a sales perspective. If you’re a Hispanic advertising agency, you have one more thing. Now you have to do it for a sub-niche that is hypersensitive, that everybody’s kind of judging whether it was a condescending stereotype, or whether it was just tapping into a true a truism and insight. So it’s a challenge. But therein lies the fun. And I think the brands that get it work really hard to make sure they’ve done their homework, but then they hopefully give a little bit of leeway to do some interesting work. Because if it’s cookie cutter to avoid all risk, it’s probably not going to have much success either. So you know, some of our clients, whether tiny kin, or T Mobile allows us to kind of flex our muscles because I think they trust, we are Hispanic, I’m a quarter Mexican and half Cuban. So if it’s gonna offend, we’ll probably have someone in our ranks that’s gotten offended. So we’re not, it’s not guesswork. And I think that that’s part of the approach that they should take. 

Armas, 29:51 

And then perhaps one of – we should address too is, you know, we’re to I think even I’ve said several times, well, you know, talk to your agency, or, but perhaps you don’t necessarily have those resources, depending on you know, who I know, we have a lot of financial services online, and those resources certainly exist. But for others, there are a lot of places where there are, there’s resources available to better understand the community, not the least of which is doing your own research and census, which I know using that pomes data is a nightmare. But there’s lots of wonderful YouTube videos to help you out with, but also Nielsen has available, we do have a lot of data available on just understanding basic information about the community, in fact, we just released and I’m going to look for it in just a second. So I can I can share it. But we just released a report on the financial services industry and sentiments around. So there are you know, there’s certainly a lot of work being done by religion by folks right here on this call and folks within your network. But there’s also a lot of data out there as well that you can, you know, if you don’t have resources, or if you really just need some great Sunday reading, you know, this is the place where you can grab some, some context, get comfortable with some of the language and the nuances we’re talking about understand the marketplace, and then perhaps have that next level dialogue with either your agency or you know, take the information that you have an extent but there there are a lot of resources out there perhaps the best thing, one of the things we can do is is figure out how to toolkit this data, right? How do we toolkit or resource in an easier way for people to access and do some of their own learning? You know, not because we don’t need the services of experts in the space because we absolutely do. But we all want to make sure that we have you know, at least a baseline level understanding of diverse communities and their needs. 

Vergara, 31:34 

There’s a lot of information out there the other very underutilized source of information or er, G’s or employee resource groups. Most companies have them. And you know, they’re usually underfunded or don’t have a budget. They’re looking for content, they’re looking to be more business resource groups, and not just swapping recipes, monthly. So they would be a great resource as well to take in a product development idea. Maybe using them as a focus group, just you know, a sounding board for strategy. There’s lots of great Intel in the companies, you know themselves. 

Calderon, 32:22 

But Marie, I want to go back to something that you mentioned earlier, that has to do with both the growth in the market specific to, you know, certainly housing and financial services, but the low no single and low double-digit representation of Individuals who actually reflect the consumer within, you know, financial services, certainly that’s the case within real estate. And I wonder if you can offer some advice on what companies can do to find the people that they know, that are reflective of the community that they want to serve. Because, you know, we’ve certainly all heard from our various points of familiarity, that it’s difficult for companies to find the communities find people, the communities that they’re trying to serve, but like we are out there, and so like, what can they do to be able to actually, you know, recruit and source talent that’s reflective of this growing, you know, these different growing segments. 

Vergara, 32:24 

Yeah, so they’re the talent is out there, but it’s not as easily to find, because we are the diverse segments is only now getting into, you know, financial services. So, so, generationally, we’re going to have, this won’t be a problem for long because of the demographics and how it’s changing. But it wasn’t an industry that we grew up in a lot of folks who come into the industry before us, did so because their relatives, their family members, their mom, dad, DS, uncles, whoever were in that, and that’s how they broke in. So we did have that, that background. So we have to be very deliberate. And sometimes we don’t even know, the things that we’re doing that are preventing us from sourcing that. So we might have, there might be a favorite college that that institution goes to year over year for sourcing, and you know, they’re not gonna, they may not have likelihood, they don’t have a high representation of diverse segments. So you’d have to be very purposeful, where you’re looking how you’re looking. Maybe the, maybe the recruiting strategy has to be more inclusive of more people making that decision in, you know, in the, in the household for that person. So it’s, um, it’s a very deliberate plan, just, I often think of professional sports, where they have scouts that go out and scour the, you know, schools and get get in early in front of the of the students. And that’s what’s needed here. There’s no shortcut to it. I do want to say Fannie Mae has a program called future housing leaders that was created a couple of years ago to do just this and diversify the market. And we do this free of charge. It’s because we understand that this is an important need. And we connect companies with diverse with diverse candidates for internships and hires, but you have to be very, very deliberate in finding that talent. 

Calderon, 35:38 

I love the sports analogy, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone actually reference, like scouting the right talent in our new industries can get great. 

Varmas, 35:48 

But that investment will yield you, you know, a better return, right? I mean, that’s kind of like what Mike and I were talking about this a little bit different. But that investment gives you a better return, I think back to when I first started my career, before I was in advertising I worked at a bank. And I was far too young to be doing. I mean, I was I was very, I was maybe 19, or something. And as a result of my speaking Spanish, I was tasked with things that were way outside of my, what I should have been doing, I was doing new loan docs and all sorts of things. That only because I could speak to the community. And so but that’s, you know, this is again, this is many, many, many years ago, but this to your point is like, we have amazing people now, you know, our we always have but I mean, our community has is advancing on education, like no other group, we are building wealth within our community, we are, you know, just really on that trajectory. So finding this talent shouldn’t be very difficult. The opportunity, I think, is really going to be in attracting this talent. Because our our Latino young people today who are well educated, understand their value if they are bicultural, you know, and bilingual. And so it really is going to be an investment on the part of financial institutions to realize recognize what that be as even talking about right to x, and then really investing in those young people, not only to carry them through which I think the Fannie Mae program is amazing, but ensuring that we, you know, resource them properly, that we pay them properly and recognize the value that they bring. I once I saw something on Instagram a few days ago about bravery and it says you know what real bravery is. It’s being willing to, it’s not just knowing to language, but it’s being willing to do your job and not your primary one. And I thought that’s, that’s a really Have a really great, you know, a really strong quote. So I think we are looking at people however, were their primary languages are both English and Spanish, they deserve to be compensated for that, for that skill and talent. 

Valdes-Fauli, 37:51 

I would just add one word, a lot of the discussion here has been how big companies can either help or benefit from Latinos. But I think we’re missing that there’s a booming small business sector of Latino-owned enterprises that, frankly, don’t need the help, and they’re there. They’re crushing it, and growing incredibly quickly, without sort of the larges of a JP Morgan when they make an announcement. And I think those people are entirely Hispanic in many cases. And it’s, it’s, you know, I think, pre COVID, and hopefully, post was growing at a much faster rate than the Anglo general market. And so I think it’s not just about sort of top-down, but it’s also bottom-up. 

Calderon, 38:33 

Yeah, well, and for those businesses in particular, I mean, while they don’t want to, you know, maybe want to migrate themselves as workers into somebody else’s firm, you know, the outreach that they do need is to be able to help capitalize their business. And so, you know, certainly there’s, there’s, you know, some work to be done, in terms of being the right resource for businesses that want capital to be able to grow their enterprise. So, great, great comments, you know, from I wonder if we can go kind of back to data segmentation, because I think in financial services in particular, here, there’s, there’s certainly, there’s a strong history of, of analyzing data that is, other than the demographic component, purely for like the ROI purposes, but not necessarily looking at consumer type and sort of hyper segmentation based on geography, and how to change your outreach based on that kind of data. So CCA know that you guys have done a lot in the way of looking at data differently, to be able to understand how to better target consumers and and to reach them with with right messaging, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about just about looking at data differently, and maybe some lessons for, for industry on what they might do. 

Armas, 40:04 

So the two things that I can think of if we’re really talking about like looking at data truly differently, and this is a little more advanced, but I’m looking at psychosocial components, and like doing some real neuroscience research, because I feel like there are other components that aren’t as simple as just demographic cuts, even when you go down to country of origin, you really need to understand, you know, behaviors, and the, like, the psychosocial components of those behaviors. Like when you think about investment, there’s a really, there’s an absolutely different perspective from Cubans, then there would be, you know, from Puerto Ricans like there. And there really is, and I’m not just saying it’s as simple as country of origin, because it isn’t, but what it really there is there are a lot of components behind straight demographics that can help influence you know, how people might engage with different products. So when I think about how we’re looking at data, we’re we Nielsen are really trying to go beyond standard demographic and geographic cuts, because it just doesn’t tell us enough of what we need to know about any distinct community group. So I think that that’s probably the, you know, the most important piece that I would offer is and you and sometimes it’s not even necessarily around the the the individuals country of origin but geographically So as an example, we know in and around Minneapolis, St. Paul, there’s a really large, black community, Somali, black, generally speaking, right, that’s a very different experience. While there are there are shared experiences among the, you know, the black American experience that is shared across the country that a lot of you know, the community have shared that they have a very specific American experience being black in America. But there are other influences because that community is largely Somali that how would have a different influence or impact on their relationship with financial services in the US I also think our financial services industry has a lot of work to do with the Latino community in particular as a result of the dialogue you know, and, and all of the very public dialogue in the past several years span several years, but the very public dialogue about you know, issues around the community and financial services and how the community was served. I feel like there’s a lot of catching up there that needs to be done. And that in and of its I almost feel like that so Have a precursor right before we start going in and immediately trying to figure out how to be super service community that is going to be growing, they’re going to be the fastest, you know, growing. And when it comes to home purchasing, there’s sort of is this other component that we’re not talking a lot about, but I feel like is, is very present. 

Calderon, 42:55 

But kind of goes back to that trust factor that you talked about earlier about building trust, or in this case, building back trust. And Maria, I know that you’ve had a lot of conversations with, you know, certainly in your prior role with institutions about how to do that. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the kind of activities that would need to take place in general within the financial services industry to be able to build that trust? 

43:27 

Sorry, I hit the wrong button there. Um, yeah. So. So there’s, we mentioned a few of them before, family, being family and friends being a source of information. So how you collect the information or how it’s disseminated. So social media, versus maybe an old school of, you know, the workshops where you’re going someplace to listen to someone speak, which is very difficult if you have, you know, a family to take care of, or if you’re working multiple jobs, and you can’t get to that, you know, at the time that they’re, they’re offering it. And then influencers and those influencers or centers of influence can be community organizations, it can be churches, or, or even trade organizations like what we have in in financial services that we have, you know, minority trade organizations like North Korea now read all those build trust. So again, it goes back to that communal and collective and gathering information from people closest to you. 

Calderon, 44:40 

Mike, I know you guys have done a lot of work with influencers as well, though different than? 

Valdes-Fauli, 44:47 

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s become, for better or worse, the most prevalent tool in the marketing toolbox these days. And I think for us, it’s not if but how, you know, you can, you can either just lose money by partnering in the wrong way and not generate ROI. And worse, you could put your reputation at risk, if you partner with someone that you know, is kind of a loose cannon on their social media, and might say something the day before the day after your partnership activates. So getting it right is important, but if you get it right, I think it’s it’s huge. It’s sort of the borrowed credibility of someone that has a beloved and engaged large audience. And they’re sort of lending you that for a day or two or a tweet or two. And, but it’s important, I think our playbook is usually it’s got to be someone that is aligned with the brand that feels organic and authentic. The toughest part is reconciling, you know, you want the brand’s message to come across, but you don’t want it to feel like an ad for the influencer. So that you know, you get a lot of eyeballs from their audience. So that kind of bridge is where the fun part and the challenge comes in. But if you can get that right, I think it can establish your brand as sort of a part of the conversation not talking to, but having a dialogue with the whole community. 

Calderon, 46:01 

It’s great. So we do have a question from one of the audience members from Fran Barnum. And Fran is asking about putting out materials in diverse languages. And so France question is when we talk to our local banks, about their CRA obligations, does that excuse them from marketing to diverse communities in their own language? Because of that you comment that you mentioned earlier, Maria? 

Vergara, 46:32 

So I’m not quite sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase that for me, Marissa?  

Calderon, 46:37 

Yes, so if banks are wanting to avoid translating materials, at is, yeah.  How does it come to their care obligations? 

Vergara, 46:48 

The UDF doesn’t prevent doing things in language, you can do things, you can start something in language that’s not product-specific. That’s educational in nature. You can have a footnote on the material that says, you know that other connection points will be in English, there are ways you can address it that way. However, I do want to say I think we all mentioned it, but may be worth stressing. With regard to the Latino, the Latin x community, the largest set growth segment is native-born, Hispanics, meaning that we were born here and still identify as Latin next, but can go, you know, in English or Spanish. And so it’s not the language, it’s, it’s not the language ability, it’s how you’re speaking to us and where you’re speaking to us. And so that’s where, you know, if you’re finding that if you can’t get that message through to whomever it is in your organization, then maybe having a third party come in, like a space or like a mic to help make those connection points a little bit more clear. But, um, so that’s my, my answer is one of you, that doesn’t prevent you from doing something, there are ways of working around that. And then to, it’s not always done in language. 

Armas, 48:21 

It sounds like an educational opportunity, right? I mean, if they’re not knowing, and they’re, you know, just thinking of, of all of the liability or risk and so that therefore not doing it, that would carry forward beyond just materials that would carry forward to ads dialogues, social media dialogue, in language, like, it just sort of feels like perhaps there’s a, an educational opportunity there for the industry on what you can do, I often find that in my work, and really, certainly even I’m sure we all lately, you know, faces in our work, where there’s a whole lot of what we can’t do, is a lot. And I almost want to start meetings and say, Okay, so we’re all clear on what we cannot do. So now let’s figure out what we can do. That’s what we’re here to talk about. And I feel like, you know, perhaps that’s an opportunity for the industry is to do more advocating on around how we get over those hurdles, so that you can have this authentic, authentic, authentic dialogue, in language and even fluid in multiple languages and in English and Spanish in different spaces. without the fear is a really good question that fan brought forward because for me, it’s outside of my area of expertise. But as an outsider absorbing this, I can feel even from what you said Maria, like, the genuine, you know, sort of concern around the risk here, and it feels like an opportunity to, to have some clarity. 

Valdes-Fauli, 49:44 

I totally agree for what it’s worth. And I think specific to the Do you need to translate everything, I’m honestly positive, you don’t, you just have to jump through a ton of hoops to get it right, ethically, as well as legally, those hoops include, you know, just the disclaimer and the sort of transparent you will need an English speaker to help. And maybe taking it a little bit further than all or nothing, you don’t have to translate every single page and legal ease of your website, but having some kind of landing page that explains in a pretty simple way what they’re going to get. So there’s a confluence of factors you need to get right. But I think the intent of starting is where it’s all caught where it’s at, I think it’s important to you, at least at the top.  

Calderon, 50:28 

That’s great. So we’ve got a few minutes left to wrap up. And I’d love to just get some kind of like parting words of wisdom from each of you. And I wonder, Maria, if we can start with you. So if you had to kind of issue a takeaway or two for folks, what would that be? And then and then we’ll go next to Mike and then Stacie. 

Vergara, 50:51 

Okay, um, I would say, you know, it’s not different, the diverse segments, the approach and the strategy isn’t different than the general market. And it’s funny, because it’s maybe that sounds too simple. But I think when we start talking about that a lot of people either are like deer in headlights, Frozen, like, I don’t know what to do. Well just do how you would normally do it, but with a different lens. But you know, it starts with, with research, you’re the market that you’re trying to connect with. Do you have the right people? Do you have the right products? Do you have the right promotion? Do you have the right pricing? It’s, it doesn’t have to be that difficult. The difficult part is getting the right team in place. So that whatever you don’t know, can be covered by someone who is on that team that’s culturally competent. 

Valdes-Fauli, 51:48 

I guess my final word is a bit of a pivot. But you know, one of my biggest frustrations is when a brand says, Well, why do I need to do this? This is the markets gonna assimilate, everyone’s gonna be speaking English. Every other immigrant group that came before is no longer a sub-segment we need to target. And there’s just some fundamental reasons why that will never happen, in my humble opinion. The first is geography. If you were at the turn of the previous century, crossing the Atlantic from Ireland, or Poland, or Russia or Italy, that’s a pretty different dynamic than you abutting Central America and Mexico and being right next to your country of origin. Secondly, there’s, you know, technology, so you’re talking to your family in that language on WhatsApp all day long. That was also not the case for any other immigrant population. And third would be the media landscape. You’ve got ODBC on Telemundo. Through these, these are feeding you in Spanish in culture, what you want your sports all day in the United States. And so that’s going to create a stickiness where even second, third, fourth generation, eventually, Latinos I think are going to be more inextricably tied to their culture than previous immigrant groups that came before. 

Armas, 53:00 

And, and others may have covered it sufficiently. So the only thing I guess I would add is, you know, let’s not let fear drive what we can and cannot do, but rather let opportunity drive it right. And that sounds like I read it out of a like one of those calendars, and I didn’t. But you know, I, that’s so easy to say it’s easier said than done. But if you’re in this industry, your goal and your goal is, and I’m sure it is for all of us, we want to of course, we want to serve the clients well. But we also want to continue to see this industry grow. Going back to the very first comments of this session, if you take a look at the community, and just how the US is the demography of the US is this is shifting is it’s you know, revolutionising what America looks like, it just makes perfect sense. You know, yes, we’re gonna, we’re talking about segment marketing. And we’re talking about diverse communities and outreach. But even if you back up from that, and say, Where is my next, you know, great success, where is my next big client base coming from? It’s no surprise that it would be the black or Hispanic community as the largest, you know, Hispanic community, specifically, as the largest growing, the Asian American is the fastest growing, and the black community, certainly, you know, a significant community with 14% population as well, it only makes sense to shift some of those dollars, especially when you look at life cycle curves, and you take a look at where, you know, the total market or where non Hispanic whites are today, a lot of those big investments and those purchases, and those, those financial engagements have taken place. And so if you’re looking at your next great consumer, and your next, you know, your next big leap, it’s going to be this community group. So looking for that opportunity, and, you know, understanding exactly what that opportunity is and getting your feet wet or trying to advance in the space. 

Calderon, 54:52 

Thank you. I want to thank you all, for all of your comments, really great dialogue. I know that our conversation today has mostly centered around the Latino community, in some sense, some of the nuances with the black community. We, before we call it a day, and we wrap up, we did just get one last question that came in. And I’d love to be able to address it. And Maria, since you’re in the financial services industry, I wouldn’t I wonder if you wouldn’t mind taking this question for us. That there’s the Biden ministration recently issued a rule to prohibit banks from discriminating against LGBTQ plus people. So I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about financial services and what the industry is doing to improve engagement with an outreach to like this specific segment of the US population? 

 Vergara, 55:49 

Wow, that’s, I? That’s a great question. I don’t know about this specific Biden ruling that you’re you’re talking about, but I did mention the minority trades that have been around for a while. And also, there are trade groups for the for gay community as well. And, you know, within the banking industry and housing industry, it is regulated, heavily regulated against discriminatory practices. But I fear though, that it’s more, you know, those over practices, and we have to be very cognizant, and, and observant of our colleagues that things aren’t happening in a disparate way as well. So though, I’m glad to hear of that ruling. And that any type of discrimination is illegal. But I would also just be cautious that in financial services in any industry that we need to not be complacent by just the letter of the law but spirit of it too. 

Calderon, 57:04 

Great. Yeah, if I want to thank you all again, love the dialog, love the focus on, on really doing things, you know, in language based on preference versus proficiency, like what Mike talked about, and really highlighting the market segment opportunity both to benefit the community but also from an economic perspective for the country. So thank you all so much, and appreciate your comments and I look forward to just being involved with you and other different ways as things move on throughout the year. 

Valdes-Fauli, 57:37 

It was a pleasure. All right. 

Calderon, 57:40 

Thank you everyone for joining

In this session, we will trace the historical roots of racism and its impact on people of color, from the weathering effect of discrimination to racially biased health, government and educational systems that have a physical trickle down effect from generation to generation. We will also circle back to today’s current chasm in health and health care based on race and how we can impact its effect by addressing drivers of health.

Speakers:

• John Lumpkin, Vice President for Drivers Health Strategy and President, Blue Cross Foundation

Transcript

NCRC video transcripts are produced by a third-party transcription service and may contain errors. They are lightly edited for style and clarity. 

Narrator, 01:09 

All right, Dr. Lumpkin, you are live

Lumpkin, 01:09 

Great. Well, good afternoon. And thank you all for coming. My name is John Lumpkin. I am Vice President for drivers of health strategy at Blue Cross with North Carolina, and the President of the Blue Cross in North Carolina foundation. And it’s, it’s a pleasure to be here to talk about the impact of racism on health. And so let me go to my slides and start off with saying that this has been quite a time for us over the last 15 months as we have lived through an experience that our nation has not seen in the last 100 years. And that experience is related to the impact of COVID. And we all know that COVID has certain risk factors due to age, chronic illness, obesity, diabetes, lung disease, kidney or liver disease. However, what we also learned is that race and ethnicity is associated with increased mortality associated and morbidity, which other injuries that occurred due to illness, based upon race and ethnicity. And for black people in this country, the risk of that is twice as high as it is for white Americans. When we look at other causes of mortality, so in the United States, we can see that all cause mortality is significantly higher for black people in the United States, and also in my home state of North Carolina. And this is true across many factors. One of the factors that has influence upon race and ethnicity have upon mortality is education. The more education someone has, on average, the longer they will live. Yet we know that there is a significant difference between blacks and whites in their mortality, even when they have education. And in fact, the differences between mortality increase with the level of education. So why does this happen? What’s going on here? And why is raced, resulting in such a big difference? Well, first, let me start off with the concept of race. The National Human Genome Project said that the vast majority of genetic variation exists within racial groups, and not between them. That race is a social construct, not a biological construct. So what does that mean? Well, first, let me tell you a little bit about something that are called SNPs, or snips, which stands for single nucleotide polymorphisms. These are the factors in our gene l gene, genetic code that make us us. And the difference between my genetic code and my brother’s genetic code are reflected in the single changes in our genome that result in the differences between us. race has been associated with eight of these differences. Other studies increase it and it goes maybe as high as 10 to 100, are associated with skin pigmentation. Yet when you look at the total human genome, there’s over 335 million snips. So if we want to think about how our genome impacts race, it is very much not effector. And that’s what the Human Genome Project has said that race is a social construct. So how are there differences that we see in our society, based upon what we call race, which frequently is associated promote predominantly with skin color. Well, one has to ask and look at how people’s health different. Some say it’s based upon the choices that people make. But as my former boss when I was at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation recently visa, Mori said, the choices people make are determined by the choices they have. What does that mean? Well, let’s look at how people live today. And what are the choices that they face. Frequently, people are faced with life-altering decisions, when they have to make the decision between spending their money on housing, or transportation.

Frequently, people are faced with life-altering decisions, when they have to make the decision between spending their money on housing, or transportation, or health care, or food. And because housing and transportation costs and health care, tend to occur at fixed times in the month. And excess expense, extra expense for housing or car breaks down or a new health care experience, frequently leads people to make a decision to spend less money on food. And this is how they become food insecure. It’s not their choice. Rather, it’s the choices that they have. So when we think about looking at food insecurity, and what are the factors, working for an insurance company, one of the things you might first think of well, maybe food insecurity associated with having health insurance. And a study that was done by the Health Initiative, each one of these dots represents one county in North Carolina. And the dots go up on the scale, if there’s higher levels of food insecurity. And they go to the right on the scale, if they’re higher levels of people who are who have health insurance in that county. And as you can see, there’s no correlation. Well, maybe it’s due to economic factors. And we know in our nation, about 30% of employees with employer-sponsored insurance earn less than $30,000 a year and half of the households making $30,000 a yes or less, are food insecure? Well, what happens when we plot those on a similar kind of graph? What we see is that financial resources have a moderate correlation to food insecurity. But what is really striking here in North Carolina, and many places across the country, that the strongest correlation is between race and going across to the right. each county gets further to the right, if it has a higher percentage of people living there who are African American. So what how does that fit with the concept, that race is a social construct, not a biological construct? If we’re going to understand these differences, we have to look at how people live. People spend on average, well, actually, every one of us does, depending upon whether it’s a revenue year or Leap Year, 525,000 minutes. That’s how long a year is. In each one of those years, people spend about 120,000 minutes working 93,000 minutes watching TV 27,000 minutes eating and drinking, shopping for 15,000 minutes, sports and exercise for 7000 minutes, only 60 minutes in a clinical setting. So we’re going to look how health is determined in our country. It is not those 60 minutes out of half a million minutes. Rather, it’s where people live, learn, work and play. And when we look at the difference based upon race and ethnicity, we have to understand that there are some truths that we have to come to grips with. And we as a nation, have been coming to those grips ever since the murder of George Floyd. However, this is not something that is new. And for those who have lived in a society for any length of time, race, although not addressed, has been an issue. And as James Baldwin said in 1962, then not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it’s fixed. So what is that reality that we have to face? All of us can remember that Crispus Attucks was the first person killed in the American River. illusion. This happened very new Faneuil Hall in Boston, Massachusetts. Yet the cultural experience almost over 200 years later, of black Americans are less tied up with this act of violence. As much as this act of violence that occurred in 1976, and captured by Stanley foreman in a Pulitzer Prize-winning photo. 

This is a photo of a black American. He’s the lawyer who was walking the city hall for a meeting and was accosted by demonstrators who were out demonstrating against school desegregation in Boston. And this occurred less than a block from where Crispus Attucks was fought died, fighting for the freedom of our nation. My talk will focus on the impact on black people in the United States that has been the impact of racism. And that has been the focus of my own personal journey, my own personal study, but we must understand that racism has impacted all people of color in this nation. In the 1830s, American Indians in the southeast were forcibly removed from where they have lived for centuries, and moved out to Oklahoma. frequently they were rusted from their homes with little time to pack and were forced off their land and to walk from their homes. And 1835 20,000 Cherokees were removed from their homes, and that Trail of Tears 5000 of them died along the way. In total, nearly 60,000 American Indians were removed by federal troops improperly close and poorly fed, resulting in 13,000 of them dying during the 1830s. This is just one of the many assaults on the first people as part of a national program assaulting their culture in their very lives. In the summer of 1919, what was called the red summer, in towns and villages and cities and what and throughout the West, Mexican Americans were subject to torture, lynchings and other violence at the hands of white mobs and law enforcement agencies, such as the Texas Rangers. Historian say that from 1910 to 20 1920, an estimated 5000 people of Mexican descent were killed or vanished in the United States. Over just over 100 years after the deadly force removal of American Indians, a similar pattern of removal in internment by the US government soldiers. This time it was a Japanese living on the west coast. They were forced to move quickly in their proper property was liquidated to be purchased by white purchasers and owners at a significant discount. And they were forced by train into internment camps behind barbed wire and guarded by US citizens. I mean, by US soldiers 120,000 Japanese, most of them US citizens were the victims of this internment. On the east coast, just 11,000 Germans were moved. And this was not a mass movement. Each of them were interviewed. And the determination resulted in 11,000 being in turn. So this is in the history of our country. What about today, when we look here in North Carolina, after the Civil Rights Movement led many to say that we have become a less racially divided country. The data says another thing. African American babies die at twice over twice the rate of white babies and the babies at 1.77 times to rate. African Americans are two and a half, almost two and a half times more likely to die than whites from diabetes and to 2.3 times more likely to die from kidney disease. All of these are significant health disparities that exists here in North Carolina. But similar data can be found in every single state of the nation. Martin Luther King said that All the forms of inequity, injustice in health is the most shocking and the most inhumane. Why does this occur? It occurs because of the systems that we have in place is Don Berwick, the former administrator for this Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services said, every system is perfectly designed to get the results that it gets. 

And our system, the system of racism, which involves engagement in the labor market and interacts with criminal justice system and healthcare system at school desegregation, and each of these interact, to results to end up in the results that we get. So let’s look at these factors. Because what they all come into play are the structures in our society, structural racism, that was identified by the North Carolina Institute of Medicine, in their healthy North Carolina 2030 report. structural racism are the public policies, institutional practices, cultural representation, and social norms. These are the systems that lead to the racial disparities in health that we see in the outcomes here in North Carolina, and across the nation. But what does it look on the ground? Let’s start off looking at public policies, institutional practices. And in a study by Samson and Wilson, in 1995, they looked at 171 of the largest cities in the US. And there was not even one city where whites lived in equal conditions to those of blacks. They said the worst urban contexts in which whites reside is considerably better than average context of black communities. And what was true, then 25 years later, is still true today. Let me show you this map. This is a map of North Carolina are my home state. In this map, the darker areas show those counties that have the highest percentage of enslaved people in 1860. Compare that map today, where this map shows those counties where people were, which have the largest percentage of blacks in the county in 2017. And what is really particularly striking is that when we take it to today and look at the county tier system that is in place in North Carolina, in other words, tier-one counties are those counties that have the highest rate of economic challenge is exactly the same counties that had the largest percentage of enslaved people back in 1860. This was due to policies related to federal policies throughout the 200 years that that has occurred that 200 and almost 50 years. And why is that? I’m sorry, 150 years? Well, we can see that in some of the policies related to redline. This is a map of Greensboro, North Carolina. And it shows the areas that were redlined marked in red, where because of federal policy, there were fewer home loans, and no home loans means no homeownership and no accumulation of wealth across generations. Some 80 some odd years later, when you look at Greensboro, North Carolina, and this map shows the light areas are those with low home value, and low home and low-income other people who live there. The same areas that were redlined in 1936 are areas that today are areas of intense poverty, and in fact are designated as areas of racial or ethnic concentrated areas of poverty. But that is not the only history and result of redlining. Because of these differences in homeownership, it is no surprise that there’s a dramatic difference in people who are black who live under the federal under 200% of the federal poverty level. Now that’s significant. Because without income you go, you end up going to different schools. And as you can see, there’s a significant difference based upon income in this graph, between the LSAT scores of individuals, children who live in these communities, and the difference between the lowest income and those at the highest income is over 400% now That’s the difference between attending Harvard or attending a community college. So children who start out behind in poor communities go throughout their school career and end up behind many times for the rest of their lives. But this legacy of redlining implies more than just the incomes, we know that it impacts incomes of people who live in neighborhoods that as well as it also exposes them to pollution. 

Black households with incomes between 50 and $60,000 live in neighborhoods that are more polluted than white households living below $10,000 a year redlined black communities are on average five to 13 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than non redline neighborhoods. And women who are exposed to high temperatures or air pollution are more likely to have premature, underweight or stillborn babies. redlining has a legacy that persists not only in the impact on income, but also an impact upon health. The further evidence about the impact of disparities and housing on health-related to exposure to pollution. More than half the 9 million people living hazard they’re living near hazardous waste sites are people of color. 6.5 million African American residents live in areas with higher than average pollution. And black Americans are three times more likely to die from exposure to air pollutants. And when you wrap that all up to what we’ve seen with COVID, there’s clear evidence that there are higher COVID death rates in areas with high fine particulate pollution, which many people of color are disproportionately exposed to. We see structural racism also in public policies, institutional practices. Here in North Carolina, when you compare the population of North Carolina, we see that blacks are just 22.1% of the population, and whites are 64.1%. Yet when you look at the prison population, the numbers are reversed. Over half of the prison population are African Americans. And more are other people of color. Is this to say that black Americans are more likely to be criminals? Well, let’s look at the data, and how public policy and implementation has had an impact upon that. And to do that, let’s look at the war on drugs. This was begun by Richard Nixon in 1971. And when we look at the impact 50 years later, we begin to understand what we mean by structural racism. First, let’s look at the data. This is data from the Census Bureau, and also data taken from FBI and other sources of information. Despite what people believe, black Americans do use illegal drugs at a rate that’s lower than white Americans. And their involvement in the drug trade is about the same. But when you look at rates of criminal justice engagement, black Americans are arrested at a rate nearly three times higher than white Americans. They’re incarcerated at significantly higher rates, both at the state and federal level. How could this be? The only answer is that there are differences and who gets pulled over? There are differences and who gets arrested, there are differences and who gets convicted. And there are differences and who goes to jail. And the only way you can explain it as the structural differences in society, there’s structural racism, and how the war on drugs was implemented. structural racism is also represented through cultural representations. And by that I mean discrimination. There’s a study that was done where two black men and two white and both young well-groomed, well-spoken, college-educated men with a aniko resume is applied for 350 advertise entry-level jobs and what the Waukee, Wisconsin. In each team, one said he was on parole. And the other said they’d served an 18-month prison sentence for cocaine. And they switched up between the black one thing that was in prison and the white one saying they’re in prison. And what they found that was easier for white male with a felony conviction to get a job than a black male whose record was clean.

This study has been repeated a number of times since then, with very similar results. Why do we have these differences is because racism is permeated throughout our society and how we think there was a project that was called the Beagle project, they looked at 10 million words, in magazines, books, articles, looked at those that the average college student with would level student would read in a lifetime. And this was based upon prior work that has shown that word associations in literature that you read, unconsciously frames how we think about people and things. What they found, after looking through 10 million words, were the most prominent associations for blacks were significantly different than those for whites. for blacks, the word associations in our literature in our culture, were being poor, violent, lazy, dangerous, for whites, who was wealthy, successful, educated, and ethical. It is no wonder when those kinds of associations are permitted to our society, that we have discrimination, where people of color are treated with less courtesy, less respect, they’re given poor service. They’re considered not to be smart of people will be afraid of you. And this is not uncommon for black men, where some white people will walk on the other side of the street when they see them coming down, will be considered dishonest, more likely to be arrested by the police. People act as if they’re better. They’re called names or insulted, or they’re threatened and harassed. Now, all of us remember that little rhyme for when we were children, sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me. That’s not really true. There was a study that was done by Brody in 2014. It was done in rural counties in Georgia. They interviewed black teenagers at age 1617, and 18. And they asked them about their experience with discrimination. And those who were more chronically discriminate at 1617 and 18. were assessed, all of them were assessed. And for those who are more chronically discriminated, those individuals had elevated stress hormones, elevated blood pressure, and elevated body mass index, in other words, more likely to be overweight and obese, putting them on the road to poor health in the future. In the only difference in these individuals, these young black men, teenagers, was their exposure to chronic discrimination. discrimination and numerous studies have been associated with things such as coronary artery calcification, which leads to heart attacks, C reactive protein which is a major measure of stress in wear and tear in the body, higher blood pressure, lower birth weight, cognitive impairment, especially as they age, poor sleep, mortality, higher rates, and more likely to be obese. All of these lead to more chronic illness, more obesity, more diabetes, more lung disease, and more kidney disease, which is you remember from earlier on, are closely associated with higher fat, higher risks of death in serious illness during the COVID. Let’s go a little bit further and look at other impacts and factors related to structural racism and look at some of the institutional practices and social norms and how they result in poor health outcomes. adverse childhood experiences in early childhood have been demonstrated to have impact on a child and how they live. But in studies that have been shown with functional MRI, so brain studies of the studies of the brain that look at how the brain functions, shows dramatic differences between the normal on the left, and the child who is exposed to adverse childhood experiences on the right. 

These experiences have an impact upon the child throughout their life. What are adverse childhood experiences, family financial distress, death, or incarceration of a parent exposure to violence in the home or in the neighborhood. Living with someone who’s mentally ill or has substance use disorder, or being treated unfairly or judged unfairly based upon race, and ethnicity. Look at the first two are the first in the last family financial distress as I’ve shown, black Americans are more likely to have to be living below 200% of poverty. And as I’ve also demonstrated, more likely to be exposed to being judged unfairly due to the race or ethnicity. And this happens even at the age in which children are in preschool. So this happens throughout their lives. What we see in North Carolina, and it’s true in states across the nation, that the percent of children with two or more adverse experiences is more than twice as high amongst black children in North Carolina, as it is amongst white children. And the reason why that number is significant is that when you look at the data for the impact of adverse childhood experiences, that behavior problems are associated with children have had these adverse childhood experiences in the K through 12 environment. These include attention problems in the classroom, social problems, being aggressive, and rule-breaking. And then when you look at their performance, children have been exposed to more than two or three adverse childhood experiences, have less academic attainment, they’re unable to name their letters, they’re unable to understand the story, below-average math skills, and below-average reading skills. The assumption would be that this would be something that would be recognized by the educational system, and treatment would be provided. But now, the way our educational system has treated those who have behavioral problems, is not as a cry for help. But with exclusion, and suspension. The rate of exclusion for children in K through 12, in North Carolina is four times at higher four black children than it is for white children. And this is something that happens not only in K through 12, but also happens as early as preschool. 

It’s a little bit harder to measure. But let me just share with you a story. This is a story, and I’ll call him Jenny. Jimmy, Jimmy’s parents who were black, did everything that they were told was supposed to be right. They enrolled Jimmy and child care right after birth, so they could get in one of the best preschools. But by the time Jimmy was four, he had grown taller than most of the other kids. And the teacher remarked the parents when he started preschool at age four, my he’s a big one. I’m going to have to keep my eye on him. And any time he asked him even an age-appropriate question that was considered to be challenging by the teacher. He was sent to the headmaster of the preschool. That is when the headmaster was available. And when he wasn’t, Jimmy was sent to the cook who was the only other black employee for Jimmy this story turned out okay. His parents removed him from the school and he’s doing much better in another institution. But this is a classic case of how black children are pushed out. And young black men and young black girls are not only Delta FIDE, but they’re demonized in our educational system, leading to poor educational outcomes. But it doesn’t have to be this way. In 1972, across the Carolinas, there was a project that was started based at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, called the ABC Darien project. In this project, economically disadvantaged children were randomized to normal care and into another group into a safe and nurturing environment, an environment where they’re given good nutrition, pediatric care, and early in quality early childhood education. The project intervention lasted only until they entered school. But when they follow these same children at age 21, they had better scores. They had more educational attainment, there was less teenage pregnancy, less marijuana use and fewer depressive symptoms. And when they followed them out to age 35, there were fewer of these children, now adults who had diabetes or metabolic syndrome, and there was more individuals with bachelor’s degrees in higher-paying jobs. There are things that we can do to make a difference, we can begin to dismantle the structures in our society that lead to these inequitable outcomes. But we have to have the will. 2600 years ago, Plato said, When equality is given to unequal things, the result will be unequal. And that is shown in this graphic from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, where frequently we talk about treating people equally. Yet, if you give everyone the same bike, not all of them will be able to use it. We know that we have to craft the resources we provide to the communities based upon their needs. And for those of us in health, it shouldn’t seem like it’s such a heavy lift to get to that point. Think about prescribing someone as I have done, when in my clinical days with insulin. No one would ever consider giving every single person the same dose of insulin. Why do we think differently about the other interventions in our society that can make a difference about an individual’s health. We can do different. I know many of those who are in the housing field are aware of the Moving to Opportunity experiment that was done by HUD. And this is where poor children with their families were moved to lower poverty neighborhoods. And these children when they grew up, had a 31% higher annual incomes, 300,000 greater lifetime earnings, they were more likely to go to college, and the girls were less likely to become single mothers. We can do better, we can improve our health, but only by addressing the health impact of only by recognizing that addressing the health impact of racism requires dismantling barriers and changing policies both inside the health system that 60 minutes on average, and outside the healthcare system where people live, learn, work and play. So at this point, that’s the end of my presentation. And I’d like to if I can switch over to get see if there any questions or comments please put them in the chat. Ah, there they are. Okay. And sila Wilson comments that number of stoplights and African Americans Communities compared to a number of white communities is another issue in addition to contributing to higher pollution and poor health and word association. In reality, there’s only one race of humans absolutely true. Do you think racism in situations only when one is discussing human beings as opposed to colorize classification, so people would begin to decrease some of the power associated with the word racism. I think we have to talk about race, we have to talk about race, because regardless of what I think, when I walk down the street, people are judging me based upon my race and ethnicity, not on where I went to school, or what I do as a profession. And this happens to our children in schools. It happens to people on the street. And until our nation has a discussion about race on an ongoing basis, and begins to change these structures in our society that lead to the inequities in the health differences that we see. We will not be able to make progress. So if you have any other questions, certainly be happy to answer them if you would put them in the comment section. 

Lumpkin, 41:53 

Arne says, Thank you very much, Dr. Lumpkin. Are the various data points by race the same in cities, towns or rural communities? Are they the same in various parts of the country? They are similar but not the same. So before I came to North Carolina, my home state was Illinois and I was the state health director there. What we see in Illinois is that many of the rural communities, particularly in Southern Illinois, have similar kinds of inequities based upon distance, but the rural communities tend to have very small numbers of people of color. So there is a significant variation from state to state. 

Lumpkin, 42:40 

Lauren asks us says she’s thankful. Thank you, Lauren. And will I share the slides as well, and I happy to share my slides. And hopefully, the sponsors will be able to make those available. 

Lumpkin, 43:01 

See, you all also points out there’s a gap and culturally-specific behavioral health scales, which is always blamed on lack of finances. And that’s, that’s absolutely true. You know, an interesting fact that that just really completely blew me away, I learned a few months ago, was that the compensation that are given to NFL athletes are significantly influenced by the culturally different references based upon race. In other words, assuming a lower mental functioning level for black athletes, has led them to be compensated less for the same level of mental deterioration. That’s an example of how and how, how systemic. Some of the racial concepts are unless we challenged, we’ve seen the same thing in some of the algorithms that are used for treatment. Where there recently was a study that was done where one of the algorithms determine when people would get special services for chronic diseases. It was based upon utilization of medical resources. However, data shows that people of color particularly African Americans are less likely to use health care services than their white counterparts. So if you base it upon the services that are used, black Americans are less likely to get their needed services. Now, what was really interesting and really positive was that the authors of this study demonstrated by setting the level to initiate these additional services based upon diagnosis, eliminated those differences between race and ethnicity. today are and again, thank you. I’m Fran rights do I think a single-payer health system would help shape racial equity in health care? I think that that’s, that’s a different issue. Certainly thinking about single-payer is one of the ways to approach it. But the challenges that we’re talking about are not are not only in the health care system. They’re in where we live, where we work, where we play. And so we have to have a societal discussion about what are the pieces that have been put in place, the policies, the social norms, the laws, the regulations, that perpetuate the racial inequities in our society, because unless we correct those, we won’t make a difference. And we look at communities throughout our nation that have been historically disinvested. You know, redlining is just an example of that, and make not a equal approach, but an equity approach to investing in those communities to raise them up so that everyone who lives in those communities has a fair opportunity to be as healthy as possible. 

Lumpkin, 46:41 

Magdalena says, How does being part of multiple discriminated groups, women, black, queer, black, play an additional factor in health and access to treatment? There, you know, as we look at the multiple factors that lead to discrimination in our society, we see a compounding of the impact on health effects. And that is based upon race. It’s based upon ethnicity. And it’s based upon gender, gender identity, in orientation. And so when we talk about equity in our society, we have to talk about all the spectrums. As I said earlier in my talk, given the amount of time and my own expertise, I focused in on this one particular career. But the goal of health equity means that everyone in our society has a fair opportunity to be as healthy as possible. Where I work at Blue Cross, we say, where we are looking to improve the health and well-being of our members, and communities where they live. But we further go on to say we won’t rest until everyone has access to fair quality health care. 

Lumpkin, 48:15 

So we have a few more minutes for other questions. See no further questions. I’d like to thank all of you so much for spending time with me this afternoon. The work that ncrc is doing is absolutely so critical to the future of our nation. If we don’t invest in those communities that have experienced historical disinvestment for decades and centuries, we cannot get to a more equitable society. And that means everyone has that fair opportunity to be as healthy as possible. Thank you so much. Stay well continue the hard work. It’s good work and it will make a difference.